NOM

I listened to the first half of Elder Holland's Maxwell Institute talk on my commute today. For those who have heard it, did you also get the message that Holland is suggesting that Pres. Nelson's "eat your vitamins" comment is an apocalyptic warning?

Also, Holland's rhetoric so far about aligning the Maxwell Institute with goals of The Brethren, rather than the goals of the university, and his dog whistling about being both offensive and defensive sounds like he's opening the floodgates for taking off the gloves and resuming the old-school FARMS antics.

I'll listen to the rest on my homeward commute but I'm interested to hear your observations.

I gave it a listen via Mormon Discussions so I'm already biased to his observations. I hated Jeff's opening analogies, it came across as a horrible parable, trying to use Hamlet as a metaphor for what? The tragic situation the COB is in right now? WTH? Lubing the bus for a pleasant journey?

The smack down on the institute was pretty surprising in some ways and not in others. It seems the COB is just setting it up for failure as an objective place of serious research. The ghost of BKP has been roaming those halls and does not like what he was seeing. So perhaps the Hamlet metaphor is fitting because it could end up in the eventual insanity and death of everyone involved. All I could think was those poor students going to BYU who are involved in that mess. I think it will either churn out super mental gymnasts or a lot more resignations, but the middle ground or "neutral zone" is being dismantled, no more NOMs in that department.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:51 am I listened to the first half of Elder Holland's Maxwell Institute talk on my commute today. For those who have heard it, did you also get the message that Holland is suggesting that Pres. Nelson's "eat your vitamins" comment is an apocalyptic warning?

It's queued up, but I have too many other podcasts already in line. So how "apocalyptic" are we talking about? Is this "Return of Jesus" level of concern or simply "paycheck at FARMS may be in jeopardy"? I'm comfortable in my beliefs such that the Second Coming is not a worry. And I don't work at BYU so I can only summon minimal sympathy for scholars who are "all in" but saddled with the expectations of a fundamentalist religion. I am endlessly thankful that my resume says "ASU" and not "BYU".

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:17 am The smack down on the institute was pretty surprising in some ways and not in others. It seems the COB is just setting it up for failure as an objective place of serious research.

And possibly a scapegoat for member retention failure in general. Holland begins by unmasking himself as coming in his "true identity" of an apostle of Jesus Christ. I think he's basically dusting off responsibility and future blame from himself and his cohorts onto the Maxwell Institute and CES. "We prophets and apostles are beyond criticizm, any less-than-faith-promoting information that leads kids out of the church is your fault and your problem. Oh, did I mention that Jesus is coming soon and he's really going to be pissed at you guys for letting us down?"

Here's a personal parable that I think is a good analog for what may be going on here. I was a creative director at a video game company for over 20 years. Our studio president always took the role of producer on our games. We had one overambitious project that was beginning to show signs of losing the publisher's interest. For the first time ever the president magnanimously turned over the role of producer to me and another team member as co-producers. Something smelled fishy. It turned out that the project was already on the publisher's chopping block and was soon to be defunded. The producer usually gets the brunt of the blame when something like that happens. So the project failed but the president had a couple of months to distance himself from it and save face while someone else absorbed the criticism.

Postscript: Once the air cleared we went on to develop many more games with me continuing in the role of the creative director and the studio president as producer.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:37 pm So how "apocalyptic" are we talking about? Is this "Return of Jesus" level of concern or simply "paycheck at FARMS may be in jeopardy"?

Definitely a come to Jesus last days narrative there...with the consistent caveat that he (Jeff) is not apocalyptic dodo.

I listened to the rest.

The takeaway for Maxwell employees:

If you err on the side of maintaining intellectual honesty you will suffer the consequences.
-You will upset the trustees (and endanger your career).

If you err on the side of sacrificing intellectual honesty in favor of towing the party line there will be no consequences.
-You will please the Lord and blessings ($) will result.

Holland has joined the new wave of stressing covenants. This is a very powerful manipulative tactic. There is nothing more guilt-inducing in our culture than to be told that what you're doing is causing you to break of your sacred covenants with God, even if that thing appears to be the most honest, moral choice.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:51 pm I listened to the rest.

The takeaway for Maxwell employees:

If you err on the side of maintaining intellectual honesty you will suffer the consequences.
-You will upset the trustees (and endanger your career).

If you err on the side of sacrificing intellectual honesty in favor of towing the party line there will be no consequences.
-You will please the Lord and blessings ($) will result.

Holland has joined the new wave of stressing covenants. This is a very powerful manipulative tactic. There is nothing more guilt-inducing in our culture than to be told that what you're doing is causing you to break of your sacred covenants with God, even if that thing appears to be the most honest, moral choice.

This is right on. The standards of academia are just honest presentation and analysis of the evidence. If your organization is threatened by those standards, then your organization has a lot of problems.

The insinuation that the Brethren have your back, means less when one recalls the Randy Bott/Washington Post affair. Prof. Bott forgot certain protocols (don't speak to the press) but nobody at the Church had his back.

I just finished listening this morning. Like RubinHighlander, I listened to it via the Mormon Discussion podcast and have inherited that bias. That said, I really think Bill's interpretation is spot on.

The church can't let scholarship of the truth claims speak for itself. Through that lens it fall flat on its face. So choose your words carefully, make your personal beliefs clear, lie if you must, but always err on the side of faith.

This is the kind of rhetoric that REALLY makes me question my ability to hold the middle ground. Mormonism used to be about truth. That was the mormonism that I was proud of.

Following quotes are from ToJS on lds.org here.

“Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails over priestcraft. -Joseph Smith

Mormonism is truth, in other words the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, is truth. … The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.” -Joseph Smith

I have always loved that one.

I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’ [Job 38:11]; which I cannot subscribe to.” -Joseph Smith

“I say to all those who are disposed to set up stakes for the Almighty, You will come short of the glory of God. To become a joint heir of the heirship of the Son, one must put away all his false traditions.” -Joseph Smith

He's looking at you with that last one Mr. Holland.

Following quotes are from ToBY on lds.org here.

All truth is for the salvation of the children of men—for the benefit and learning—for their furtherance in the principles of divine knowledge; and divine knowledge is any matter of fact—truth; and all truth pertains to divinity. -Brigham Young

Be willing to receive the truth, let it come from whom it may; no difference, not a particle. [...] it is no matter who it is, all I want is to know the truth. -Brigham Young

“Mormonism,” so-called, embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to “Mormonism.” The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this Church. As for their morality, many of them are, morally, just as good as we are. All that is good, lovely, and praiseworthy belongs to this Church and Kingdom. “Mormonism” includes all truth. There is no truth but what belongs to the Gospel. It is life, eternal life; it is bliss; it is the fulness of all things in the gods and in the eternities of the gods. -Brigham Young

I want to say to my friends that we believe in all good. If you can find a truth in heaven, earth or hell, it belongs to our doctrine. We believe it; it is ours; we claim it. -Brigham Young

Elder Holland's (and apparently the entire Q15's) version of Mormonism is not what Joseph Smith, or even Brigham Young ever taught. It is limited, watered down, weak, and provably false.

græy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:21 am

“Mormonism is truth;...

Mormonism is truth...

Elder Holland's (and apparently the entire Q15's) version of Mormonism is not what Joseph Smith, or even Brigham Young ever taught. It is limited, watered down, weak, and provably false.

Another sign of the modern church's apostasy: Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had no qualms about calling their religion Mormonism. Now it's the M-word. I'm sure we could proof text a scripture from somewhere that would make that sound like heresy.

græy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:21 am Elder Holland's (and apparently the entire Q15's) version of Mormonism is not what Joseph Smith, or even Brigham Young ever taught. It is limited, watered down, weak, and provably false.

Those statements are all fine and good unless they distract from holding up the church and its leaders. That kind of talk was functional and fortified many believing Mormons that they were on the side of the altruistic truth seeker in the pre-Internet days. But information is just too easy to come by these days so that kind of rhetoric doesn't fly anymore.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:34 am Those statements are all fine and good unless they distract from holding up the church and its leaders. That kind of talk was functional and fortified many believing Mormons that they were on the side of the altruistic truth seeker in the pre-Internet days. But information is just too easy to come by these days so that kind of rhetoric doesn't fly anymore.

Yeah, well, I guess the jokes on us then isn't it?

græy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:48 am Yeah, well, I guess the jokes on us then isn't it?

Don't get me wrong, I love those quotes. But if JS or BY had to contend with the Internet I am very skeptical that they would have uttered them.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:55 am

græy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:48 am Yeah, well, I guess the jokes on us then isn't it?

Don't get me wrong, I love those quotes. But if JS or BY had to contend with the Internet I am very skeptical that they would have uttered them.

No. They would not have.

But I do miss the early methods of mormon missionary work. If you ever read back they would go into a town and then ask to debate the preachers in the town. They really felt that they had a good argument and the scriptures on their side. And you could see it in their confidence to being willing to go head to head with others who believed differently.

Now we have a PR department and a Q15 who are pretty much milquetoast.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:55 am Don't get me wrong, I love those quotes. But if JS or BY had to contend with the Internet I am very skeptical that they would have uttered them.

I agree. The problem is, that was the type of mormonism that many of us connected with and developed a testimony of. Now we can see that type of mormonism never existed, and what we have in its place is just hollow.

græy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:32 pm I agree. The problem is, that was the type of mormonism that many of us connected with and developed a testimony of. Now we can see that type of mormonism never existed, and what we have in its place is just hollow.

Makes me wonder if that's why so many ex/post Mormons don't find another religion, because Mormonism does a good job of decimating the others. When I told my TBM friend about my disaffection from The Mormon faith, he was quite anxious to know what religion I was turning to, so he could point out how it has worse errors than Mormonism. I think he was disappointed when I said I don't want any religion at all anymore, only personal spirituality.