Church’s truth claims can be tested

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Not Buying It
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Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:33 am

The catalyst thread got me thinking, and this is just a friendly reminder, unlike many religions the Church makes truth claims that can be tested. You can have a scientific mindset with the Church you can’t have with some other major religions - thanks to the relative newness of the Church compared to more ancient religions, and thanks to Joseph Smith’s hubris when making claims to his merry band of gullible followers, the Church makes several claims we can test directly:

Claim: Joseph Smith could translate ancient languages. We can test this - we have the facsimiles with the Egyptian hieroglyphics, we have Joseph’s translations of the hieroglyphics, we have modern translations of the hieroglyphics. Test failed. So apologists resort to the “catalyst” theory, which is in direct contradiction to what Joseph himself claimed he was doing and what the Church taught he was doing for over 150 years, until just recently.

Claim: The Book of Mormon is a record of a civilization somewhere in the Western Hemisphere that had horses and steel. No evidence of horses or steel found anywhere prior to Columbus, test failed. The Church may be making a slow fade on claims that the Book of Mormon is literal, pretty much impossible with almost 200 years of statements to the contrary by the Brethren, but they’ve been able to get members to swallow even stupider tripe than that, so they may succeed if that is the direction they are going. Anyway, test failed.

Claim: We have prophets and apostles just like in the scriptures. Do any of them ever do any of the things apostles and prophets in the scriptures did? Nope. President Nelson isn’t even sure someone is going to get healed when he gives him a blessing, unlike apostles in the New Testament who healed people if their shadow merely passed over them (see Acts 5:15-16). Test failed.

What other truth claims does the Church make that can be directly tested and shown to be false?
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

el-asherah
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by el-asherah » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:30 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:33 am
The catalyst thread got me thinking, and this is just a friendly reminder, unlike many religions the Church makes truth claims that can be tested. You can have a scientific mindset with the Church you can’t have with some other major religions - thanks to the relative newness of the Church compared to more ancient religions, and thanks to Joseph Smith’s hubris when making claims to his merry band of gullible followers, the Church makes several claims we can test directly:
The church's move to its a Catalyst for Revelation is an attempt to solve the translation problems (such as the BoA) by making the translation process un-falsifiable. Therefore, the church is still true!!

But this approach doesn't solve problems with the content of the revelation like blatantly false science, doctrine, or anachronisms (such as in the BoA,D&C, or BoM). So the church must extend this concept to its a Catalyst for Revelation - interpreted through the cultural lens of Joseph based on the time period. Some of the revelation is from God and some of it is Joseph's interpretation.

How much of the revelation is from God? and how much is just what randomly popped into the mind of the prophet? It doesn't matter because the church is still true and the content of the revelation is now un-falsifiable. It no longer matters even if 0% is from God and 100% is from Joseph as long as the church is still true. The prophet was simply speaking as a man and was a product of his time.

On every subject that can be falsified (such as evolution, BoM geography) the church will continue to water down the words of the prophets or scriptures - "the church does not take a position on ___ and has never taken such a position". The church is still true because you can never prove it wrong if the church redefines everything that shows it was wrong.
Last edited by el-asherah on Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hagoth
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by Hagoth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:51 am

It is really a sad time to be a member of a church that you want to believe literally, but its professors keep moving the goalposts.
Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:33 am
Claim: Joseph Smith could translate ancient languages. We can test this - we have the facsimiles with the Egyptian hieroglyphics, we have Joseph’s translations of the hieroglyphics, we have modern translations of the hieroglyphics. Test failed. So apologists resort to the “catalyst” theory, which is in direct contradiction to what Joseph himself claimed he was doing and what the Church taught he was doing for over 150 years, until just recently.
The BoA essay states:
The word translation typically assumes an expert knowledge of multiple languages. Joseph Smith claimed no expertise in any language.
there are a number of examples of Joseph bragging about his ability to speak and understand many languages, including Egyptian. Like:

“Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim, Keed'nauh to-me-roon lehoam elauhayauh dey - ahemayana veh aur'hau lau gnaubadoo, yabadoo ma-ar'gnau comeen tehoat sheamyauh allah (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heaven and the earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from these heavens.) An Egyptian, Su-e-eh-ni (What other persons are those?) A Grecian, Diabolos basileuei (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman, Messieurs sans Dieu (Gentlemen without God.) . . .”(The Voice of Truth published by Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, 1844) Joseph goes on, quoting phrases of Turkish, German, Syrian, Spanish, Italian, Hebrew, Danish, Latin, and other languages.

And:

“Were I an Egyptian, I would exclaim Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is; [O the earth! the power of attraction, and the moon passing between her and the sun.]” (Times and Seasons, November 13, 1843, Joseph Smith, editor)

And:

“I have now preached a little Latin, a little Hebrew, Greek, and German; and I have fulfilled all. I am not so big a fool as many have taken me to be. The Germans know that I read the German correctly.” (Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse)

The “Egyptian” words Joseph uses here are from his own Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, but, dang!, these words are not Egyptian at all, they are nonsensical, made up Joseph Smithese.

Holland to Maxwell institute: "Let's keep those goalposts moving!" But we can't erase the fact that Joseph Smith really did make testable claims about things that he insisted (and most of the prophets who followed him) were literal.

It appears that we have front row seats to the selling out of a once proud religious tradition.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by Hagoth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:59 am

Even though it was never canonized, I would add Zelph to the list. Joseph Smith told us exactly where we should look to find artifacts and DNA of the Nephites.

Another is Cumorah. I remember when I first heard the two-Cumorahs theory as a recently returned missionary and I thought it was the most bizarre heresy I had ever heard because it seemed so desperate and it defied what the prophets had said. No one imagined a Mesoamerican Cumorah until the one in New York had utterly failed the truth claims test.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Palerider
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by Palerider » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:50 am

Excerpt of letter from Henry King to Governor John Chambers of Iowa territory, July 1843:

"...accordingly I crossed the river and went immediately to Smith’s house, where I found the three chiefs waiting for me. I asked them if they had seen the “great man or British Officer” as they called him, they said they had— but he could not talk to them, and wanted me to interpret for them."

( Because of the big build-up given by Joseph's emissaries to the three chiefs, he was mistakenly considered by them to be a "British Officer" separate from the unwelcome Americans .)

Apparently, Joseph preached on one or two occasions to the "Lamanites" but for some odd reason he needed an interpreter. And this from a man who claimed to speak ancient Chaldean and had a gift for interpreting languages.... :roll:

Edited for accuracy.
Last edited by Palerider on Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hiding in plain sight
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by hiding in plain sight » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:54 am

The Book of Mormon is true and contains the fulness of the gospel.

I love how people try to explain away fulness of the gospel somehow does NOT need to include the concepts of baptism for the dead, washings and annointings, temple endowments, celestial marriage. All of which are the pinnacle of mormonism.

But wait. Theres more.

It is not just that the Book of Mormon misses many of the key aspects of mormonism in its definition of so-called fullness of the gospel. It actually teaches a false plan of salvation where there continues to be a literal hell, with a literal devil, for almost everyone who lives.

Mosiah16:10 Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation—

Those who do evil will be delivered up to the devil after the resurrection and after the judgment.

Only those who do good works get to go to heaven.

So where do murderers, rapists, apostates, intellectuals and homosexuals go?????

That would be correct. To hell with the devil.

But D&C 76 teaches the exact opposite.

So much for the most correct book on earth.

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Corsair
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by Corsair » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:20 am

I see priesthood blessings of healing as another test of LDS faith and doctrine. The church would not want to statistically test the efficacy of priesthood blessings because they simply don't work that way.

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Hagoth
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by Hagoth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:28 am

hiding in plain sight wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:54 am
It actually teaches a false plan of salvation where there continues to be a literal hell, with a literal devil, for almost everyone who lives.
Aw, c'mon HIPS, you know that God instructed his prophets and apostles to lie to people about a literal hell to scare them into being good (D&C 19). So now we know it's OK for leaders to lie if they think it promotes the purposes of the church.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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hiding in plain sight
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by hiding in plain sight » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:28 am
hiding in plain sight wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:54 am
It actually teaches a false plan of salvation where there continues to be a literal hell, with a literal devil, for almost everyone who lives.
Aw, c'mon HIPS, you know that God instructed his prophets and apostles to lie to people about a literal hell to scare them into being good (D&C 19). So now we know it's OK for leaders to lie if they think it promotes the purposes of the church.
Why yes God did my friend Hagoth.

You know this is my own personal pet peeve. God admitting to having lie (D&C 19). Teaching a false plan of salvation in the BOM. Yet our mormon friends and family boldly testify that they "know" it is all true.

I guess if they can change the meaning of the word translate to mean "translate" that going from true to "true" is not that big of a leap. :-)

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Hagoth
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by Hagoth » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:34 pm

hiding in plain sight wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:50 am
God admitting to having lie (D&C 19). Teaching a false plan of salvation in the BOM.
And it even comes with a punchline that makes it all very transparent:
26 And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God—

33 And misery thou shalt receive if thou wilt slight these counsels, yea, even the destruction of thyself and property.

34 Impart a portion of thy property, yea, even part of thy lands, and all save the support of thy family.

35 Pay the debt thou hast contracted with the printer. Release thyself from bondage.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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moksha
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Re: Church’s truth claims can be tested

Post by moksha » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:33 am

What about the Angel with the drawn sword loading up all evidence and proof into the Flaming U-Haul from Heaven, in order to confound the wise and learned?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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