As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
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deacon blues
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As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by deacon blues » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:29 pm

I was listening to podcasts and thinking about how the the LDS Church is trying to slowly introduce new and controversial topics. They aren’t so much showing concern about openness or posterity, as they are trying to avoid a catastrophic loss in membership. They’re trying to avoid what happened to the RLDS Church 30 to 40 years ago. Does anyone else see this in their slow, soft dissemination of information?
God is Love. God is Truth

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jfro18
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by jfro18 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:02 pm

It's unquestionable - the faith crisis study was done a year or two before the essays came out?

The church knows they can't just hide the info and expect people to not see it... this is completely their way of saying "See the info was always there" and to tell doubting members "We've seen it all and answered it in detailed essays."

They constantly run surveys and know exactly what members are struggling with, and you can see that getting ramped up rather quickly this year so far.

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moksha
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by moksha » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:50 pm

I would like the LDS Church to try and become more like the Community of Christ. It's like two roads that diverged in the woods and one became Wall Street and the other one Abbey Road.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Red Ryder
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:57 pm

I don't really see it happening.

Didn't the RLDS need money and therefore sold out? The church doesn't need money; it needs members and is inoculating the youth to prevent the faith crisis disease that's ravaging today.

They're doing it wrong though. They need to stop addressing the doubters history and start focusing on Christ. Phase out Joseph Smith as a Prophet and craft him as Joseph the restorationist who did his job and look forward. Not back at history.

Simply the message and capitalize on brand strength! Like this:

Joseph Smith restored the Gospel.
God lives!
Jesus Christ saves!
Be kind!
Love everyone!
Family first!
Work hard!
Self sufficient!
Prepare for living with God again.
Enjoy life!

Those 10 things should be the focus of Mormonism!

More Uchtdorf and Gong. Less Oaks and Nelson.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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jfro18
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by jfro18 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:17 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:57 pm
I don't really see it happening.

Didn't the RLDS need money and therefore sold out? The church doesn't need money; it needs members and is inoculating the youth to prevent the faith crisis disease that's ravaging today.
I think the RLDS if I understood it correctly did a very fast/seismic change? I had listened to this explained on a podcast a while ago but I thought it was a membership issue/$$ so they had to adjust everything.

I think the Mormon church today is going to head in a similar direction but at a snail's pace and maybe not as drastic. You can already see it today with how the church doesn't really use manuals but focuses on recent gen conference talks. They work very hard to avoid being tied to a lot of past statements and instead just keep all recent talks in rapid circulation.

It would not surprise me one bit if in 20 years you don't hear about how the BoM was translated other than saying Joseph prayed and was given the power of revelation to dictate it... just cut loose everything that can be tested against. Same with Book of Abraham and it wouldn't shock me if in 20 years a lot of the super unique Mormon doctrines are just watered down to nothing.

We'll see- they don't need the money and likely never will, so they will have to make the choice as to whether they want to keep the true believers in a smaller church or if they want to keep going mainstream so they can advertise with the "Look at us, we're just as hip as the other churches" vibe.

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nibbler
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by nibbler » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:06 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:17 pm
You can already see it today with how the church doesn't really use manuals but focuses on recent gen conference talks. They work very hard to avoid being tied to a lot of past statements and instead just keep all recent talks in rapid circulation.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't like taking turns reading general conference talks during PH but I get it.

I agree that when things change the church's style is to stop saying the old thing, start saying the new thing, and never ever address the fact that a change occurred. They even seem willing to accept that many members will repeat the outdated policies/doctrines for the rest of their lives... but in this case I think there's another factor.

I've heard nightmare stories from people that got doctrinal stuff published in the Ensign. Years of back and forth with the correlation department. Producing official material takes time because the process has become extremely formalized. That's probably why we had the same SS manuals for two+ decades, the level of effort.

And then there's conference talks. Already run past legal and correlation. Already translated into many languages. It's the low hanging fruit. That's what we get during the PH hour. Low hanging fruit.

- - - - - - - - -

I went to a CoC service a few years back. It was first Sunday so they did the sacrament. The prayer is nearly identical, if not exactly identical, but a woman offered the prayer in the service. I wasn't expecting that. Hearing a woman give the prayer produced such a warm, good feeling.

The church may very well be in a mode where they're trying to dilute the old narrative as they get people to adjust to the new narratives... but lately it feels like the leaders have done a full court press attacking doubt and doubters. It's annoying because they leave it at "doubt" without explicitly talking about what is being doubted.

I don't know whether it's intentional but it sure feels like they say:
Doubting the gospel is bad, how could you doubt being a good person? Avoid doubt!
But the reality is that their attacks on doubt amount to attacking people for not placing complete trust in the leaders. As if not trusting in their arm of the flesh is equivalent to not being a good person. They more leaders approach this subject in this way the more people they will lose. They should be re-earning people's trust, not attacking people for having lost trust.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

Kishkumen
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by Kishkumen » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:08 pm

If I heard sermons like this in church, I might have stayed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUR1t0IuxJE

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moksha
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by moksha » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:54 pm

Sounds like a Red Ryder, Corsair, Hagoth road trip to a Community of Christ service is in order. Then they can return and report. Don't let us dangle in half-understandings, we need the real scoop.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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RubinHighlander
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:00 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:57 pm

They're doing it wrong though. They need to stop addressing the doubters history and start focusing on Christ. Phase out Joseph Smith as a Prophet and craft him as Joseph the restorationist who did his job and look forward. Not back at history.
Yes! This!

I can't believe the COB is even talking about some of the problematic topics the way they are, it makes them look that much worse and desperate. If they just stop talking about those things and focus on the core christian values I think they would gain more ground. But the old guys just can't leave their pet peeves alone! RSM has to get that Mword off the books, Oaks gotta get his homophobia on, Bednar gotta keep stroking his ego, Holland just needs to shut his pie hole before he turns total dodo. The more they talk about these topics, the more they try to defend the lies and claims, the more stupid analogies they throw down on the TBMs, the older, less educated and ignorant they appear. How many more cringe worthy moments are we in for here? With all the money they have, you think they could have enough smart people around them to not fall into these quandaries. But their egos and drinking their own koolaid continues to distort their world view.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Palerider
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by Palerider » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:03 pm

The way I understand it, leadership in the RLDS were doing their own research and adding up the math on the BofM and reached the obvious (to everyone else) conclusion that it was not true. Part of their membership couldn't accept that and I think there was a schism.

Unfortunately LDS leadership aren't nearly as courageous.

I'm for the seismic shift. LDS leadership would be SO much better off to confess and repent as they are want to preach to everyone else. Just get it over with. Come clean.

Then take the great Christian principles that already exist in the church and make a path to rebuild their doctrine along Biblical lines.I think members would be amazingly forgiving. And the resulting organization would be much better for it. They could even still be proud of their pioneer heritage that had led them to this point.

But the truth is, leadership doesn't have the faith in Christ or His teachings to do such a thing. Their faith is in reality based on Joseph....not in Christ.
They honestly believe that without Joseph, they are nothing. Which in a way is true. They would lose their status as apostles and their power as priesthood holders.

But what they would gain would be so much better. They would gain personal integrity and honesty. And they could then join the rest of us in following a hope in Christ rather than depending upon the false promise of a false and empty ordinance called the Second Anointing.
An ordinance of a man.....not of God.

Who knows, even I might be tempted to go back under those circumstances.
Last edited by Palerider on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hagoth
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by Hagoth » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:47 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:57 pm
They're doing it wrong though. They need to stop addressing the doubters history and start focusing on Christ. Phase out Joseph Smith as a Prophet and craft him as Joseph the restorationist who did his job and look forward. Not back at history.
That would be great if they could erase the things that Joseph, Brigham and others actually did and said. Actually though, if they could do that they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by Hagoth » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:51 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:54 pm
Sounds like a Red Ryder, Corsair, Hagoth road trip to a Community of Christ service is in order. Then they can return and report. Don't let us dangle in half-understandings, we need the real scoop.
That sounds like an awesome road trip. Toronto, of course, so we can hang out with Hamer.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Just This Guy
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Re: As the RLDS/COG is the LDS Church May become.

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:46 am

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:29 pm
I was listening to podcasts and thinking about how the the LDS Church is trying to slowly introduce new and controversial topics. They aren’t so much showing concern about openness or posterity, as they are trying to avoid a catastrophic loss in membership. They’re trying to avoid what happened to the RLDS Church 30 to 40 years ago. Does anyone else see this in their slow, soft dissemination of information?

To me, it seams like there are two competing factions within the church leadership. First off you have people who are trying to do like Deacon says. Reform the church and its doctrine to something that could survive in the 21st century. The other side is fighting this. They tried denying it for as long as they could, but now the cat is out of the bag and they have had to face that reality. So since they can't deny it anymore, then they attack the people they can like doubters and ex-members.

I don't know how many are in each camp. I would venture to say that more upper leadership is in the camp fighting liberalization of the church, or at least they are the more vocal group at the moment.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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