CES Letter -- It's impact and what would you change?
Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:02 am
As I've been listening to the Reel/Bennett podcasts (only at the start of #3) I've been thinking about how far reaching the impact of the CES Letter has been... you see it everywhere you go when people talk about why they left, and it's such an easy document to send to people with questions. I have to imagine it's been a part of tens of thousands of people who have left the last 5 years.
It also makes me think about what I would change to make it as "bulletproof" as possible from apologists... and that becomes pretty clear from listening to Bennett or reading the online responses.
From the first episode or so, I would definitely take out/change the following:
I would take out:
Book of Mormon geography issues -- instead of focusing on the possible connections to names of towns around him, I would focus on how the church repeatedly taught that the Hill Cumorah in NY is the BoM one and how they now teach differently as science has shown there's nothing there.
Hill Cumorah/Captain Kidd -- Again, this could be something that JS was familiar with, but it's too weak of an argument to put in a letter that is meant to outline the problems with the church. To me these are secondary issues, so I would leave them out because it gives too much ammo to apologists.
Plagiarism from View of the Hebrews/Late War/Naopleon/Etc -- On this one I wouldn't take the section out entirely, but focus just on the similarities of themes to make the case that Joseph Smith was answering questions that were important to people in his lifetime. I think that's a much stronger argument than trying to piece together verses with similar phrases. Dan Vogel makes a great argument here in that the overriding issues were widely discussed in Joseph's times (mound builders, where Indians came from), so trying to make the direct plagiarism case is not necessary.
I would add:
Anachronisms: Deutero-Isaiah is not mentioned in the CES Letter and I think that is a massive problem that apologists have a very tough time with.
JST plagiarism: This came after the CES Letter, but is another big problem for Joseph Smith's credibility that he was receiving the direct word of God when he keeps getting things wrong or proven to be lifting materials.
I haven't spent too much time thinking about this, but as I've listened there are points that Bennett makes where he's right, and the weakest parts of the CES Letter are also what leads it off. I think approaching these issues semi-chronologically makes sense, but you need the beginning stuff to be strong so people don't get turned off.
Pretty amazing how much damage one nicely produced document has done to the church -- Jeremy Runnels has cost the church more tithing money than probably anyone else in modern times.
Just curious if anyone else had issues they wish were in there or issues they wish were either diminished or removed altogether?
It also makes me think about what I would change to make it as "bulletproof" as possible from apologists... and that becomes pretty clear from listening to Bennett or reading the online responses.
From the first episode or so, I would definitely take out/change the following:
I would take out:
Book of Mormon geography issues -- instead of focusing on the possible connections to names of towns around him, I would focus on how the church repeatedly taught that the Hill Cumorah in NY is the BoM one and how they now teach differently as science has shown there's nothing there.
Hill Cumorah/Captain Kidd -- Again, this could be something that JS was familiar with, but it's too weak of an argument to put in a letter that is meant to outline the problems with the church. To me these are secondary issues, so I would leave them out because it gives too much ammo to apologists.
Plagiarism from View of the Hebrews/Late War/Naopleon/Etc -- On this one I wouldn't take the section out entirely, but focus just on the similarities of themes to make the case that Joseph Smith was answering questions that were important to people in his lifetime. I think that's a much stronger argument than trying to piece together verses with similar phrases. Dan Vogel makes a great argument here in that the overriding issues were widely discussed in Joseph's times (mound builders, where Indians came from), so trying to make the direct plagiarism case is not necessary.
I would add:
Anachronisms: Deutero-Isaiah is not mentioned in the CES Letter and I think that is a massive problem that apologists have a very tough time with.
JST plagiarism: This came after the CES Letter, but is another big problem for Joseph Smith's credibility that he was receiving the direct word of God when he keeps getting things wrong or proven to be lifting materials.
I haven't spent too much time thinking about this, but as I've listened there are points that Bennett makes where he's right, and the weakest parts of the CES Letter are also what leads it off. I think approaching these issues semi-chronologically makes sense, but you need the beginning stuff to be strong so people don't get turned off.
Pretty amazing how much damage one nicely produced document has done to the church -- Jeremy Runnels has cost the church more tithing money than probably anyone else in modern times.
Just curious if anyone else had issues they wish were in there or issues they wish were either diminished or removed altogether?
