NOM

Most of you have probably heard the news earlier in the week the Utah Dept of public safety has stated the Byu police department will be decertified September 2019. This stems from investigations into Byu Pd gleening the records of other police departments to find any juicy stories of BYU students and then sharing the info with Byu officials. Here is what one expert had to say in the Sltrib.
"S. Daniel Carter, president of Safety Advisors for Educational Campuses, LLC, said he’s worked on campus safety issues across the nation for nearly 30 years and has never seen a move to decertify a police department or “police misconduct of this scope.”

“It is common for institutions to use their campus police to also serve as security and enforce institutional policies,” he said, “but use of police access to effectively spy on students to enforce non-criminal codes of conduct in this manner is unconscionable. In so doing here, a private entity would be using the power of the state to effect their own religious rules, something with potentially significant ramifications.”

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/02/28/ ... -with-byu/

I put this under doctrinal because what else could it be but doctrinal?

And I'll bet the BYU pd thought up this spying gig all on their own, right? I'm sure no one on the BYU board would have ordered or thought of such a thing.

I wonder how the "board" would feel if Utah police departments shared unrequested files of board member offenses with the Salt Lake Tribune. Although I'm sure none of them have ever committed an offense of any nature....

Palerider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:14 am And I'll bet the BYU pd thought up this spying gig all on their own, right? I'm sure no one on the BYU board would have ordered or thought of such a thing.

I wonder how the "board" would feel if Utah police departments shared unrequested files of board member offenses with the Salt Lake Tribune. Although I'm sure none of them have ever committed an offense of any nature....

Well, whoever is finally fingered as the "responsible" party for this unconstitutional information sharing will have one specific attribute: Their name will not be preceeded with the title "Elder". At best, some unfortunate officer will be disciplined and possibly fired (possibly with full retirement benefits). At no time will anyone with an ecclesiastic title shoulder any blame. No one who was given a "calling" by an ecclesiastic officer will be held responsible.

Frankly, I think that no one will necessarily be disciplined for this egregious violation of privacy and police authority. The BYU police might grudgingly say "mistakes were made, but not by anyone currently serving" and they will painfully adapt to the new reality. Maybe. There is a non-zero chance that nothing at all will change. BYU students may still suffer for their sins with the penance of getting kicked out of school, fired from their job, and evicted from their apartment for being the victim of a sexual assault.

I would like to know what information was passed on to BYU. I think some folks may have a case against BYU, as there definitely appears to be criminal sharing of data.

The case that was cited as cause for their decertification was one where a girl got raped when she was out drinking. It was reported to the BYUPD. An officer at BYUPD shared the case with the Honor Roll office and the Honor Roll office used that info to issued disciplinary action for the drinking and sex.

The other issue is failure to comply with open records laws. They cite a lawsuit by the Salt Lake Tribune with regard to the case above as part of their reason to decertify, however, we know that there are additional cases pending for the same thing. The Trib, RFM, MormonLeeks, and at least one other entity all have lawsuits pending over their failure to comply with records requests with regard to the Joseph Bishop case. It does make you wonder how many other cases they have open against them right now. IIRC, the case that they cited for decertification happaned back in 2016. The Joseph Bishop was only last summer. So there are potentially a LOT more other lawsuits out there for failure to comply with the GRAMA law.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:19 am

Palerider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:14 am And I'll bet the BYU pd thought up this spying gig all on their own, right? I'm sure no one on the BYU board would have ordered or thought of such a thing.

I wonder how the "board" would feel if Utah police departments shared unrequested files of board member offenses with the Salt Lake Tribune. Although I'm sure none of them have ever committed an offense of any nature....

Well, whoever is finally fingered as the "responsible" party for this unconstitutional information sharing will have one specific attribute: Their name will not be preceeded with the title "Elder". At best, some unfortunate officer will be disciplined and possibly fired (possibly with full retirement benefits). At no time will anyone with an ecclesiastic title shoulder any blame. No one who was given a "calling" by an ecclesiastic officer will be held responsible.

Frankly, I think that no one will necessarily be disciplined for this egregious violation of privacy and police authority. The BYU police might grudgingly say "mistakes were made, but not by anyone currently serving" and they will painfully adapt to the new reality. Maybe. There is a non-zero chance that nothing at all will change. BYU students may still suffer for their sins with the penance of getting kicked out of school, fired from their job, and evicted from their apartment for being the victim of a sexual assault.

Whoever is to found to be to blame is probably already deceased.

I only have this to say:

ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME!

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:03 amThe Trib, RFM, MormonLeeks, and at least one other entity all have lawsuits pending over their failure to comply with records requests with regard to the Joseph Bishop case.

I wonder how desertification will affect this. The BYU police wanted to have all the power of a real police department when it served them, but they also insisted that they don't have to comply with GRAMA because they are privately operated. Once they lose their certification and become a private security guard team will they then legitimately be able to deny freedom of information requests?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:55 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:03 amThe Trib, RFM, MormonLeeks, and at least one other entity all have lawsuits pending over their failure to comply with records requests with regard to the Joseph Bishop case.

I wonder how desertification will affect this. The BYU police wanted to have all the power of a real police department when it served them, but they also insisted that they don't have to comply with GRAMA because they are privately operated. Once they lose their certification and become a private security guard team will they then legitimately be able to deny freedom of information requests?

Yes, but their ability and jurisdiction to run investigations independently will be gone. Thus all future criminal investigations will undertaken and controlled by external police.

As an Australian I find this type of statutory private police body disturbing.

no1saint wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:23 am As an Australian I find this type of statutory private police body disturbing.

Me too. And I find it disappointing that they might be able to turn to this to their advantage in hiding evidence like that for a mission president rapist.

no1saint wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:23 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:55 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:03 amThe Trib, RFM, MormonLeeks, and at least one other entity all have lawsuits pending over their failure to comply with records requests with regard to the Joseph Bishop case.

I wonder how desertification will affect this. The BYU police wanted to have all the power of a real police department when it served them, but they also insisted that they don't have to comply with GRAMA because they are privately operated. Once they lose their certification and become a private security guard team will they then legitimately be able to deny freedom of information requests?

Yes, but their ability and jurisdiction to run investigations independently will be gone. Thus all future criminal investigations will undertaken and controlled by external police.

As an Australian I find this type of statutory private police body disturbing.

Interesting. This makes me wonder: Perhaps the Board of Directors of LDS-Inc. (Q15) is actually in favor of having BYU police de-certified to cover up the past misdeeds of President (Rapist) Bishop, and who knows how many others?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:05 am

no1saint wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:23 am As an Australian I find this type of statutory private police body disturbing.

Me too. And I find it disappointing that they might be able to turn to this to their advantage in hiding evidence like that for a mission president rapist.

Will the state not have the power to seize the records if they continue to refuse to release them?

I don't know much about this type of stuff frankly, other than I've known about the collusion with the church for a LONG time. Its a systemic problem in Utah across the board.

I welcome Consiglari to come in and correct me if I am wrong here...

My understanding is that because of Ex Post Facto, the laws that were in effect at the time the crime was committed (failure to follow GRAMA laws) would still hold even after they are decertified. Hence why they got a warning as part of the decertification letter telling them not to distroy any documentation or deviance. The fact that had to include that warning makes it sound like they are at least concerned that they may try to pull that.

The state also has the option to order that ALL evidence they have for every case be turned over to the state or at least the Provo PD as part of the transition process.

So to me it sounds like the state is aware of the possibility they may try to pull something and they are taking steps on their own to prevent it from happening.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:47 am I welcome Consiglari to come in and correct me if I am wrong here...

My understanding is that because of Ex Post Facto, the laws that were in effect at the time the crime was committed (failure to follow GRAMA laws) would still hold even after they are decertified. Hence why they got a warning as part of the decertification letter telling them not to distroy any documentation or deviance. The fact that had to include that warning makes it sound like they are at least concerned that they may try to pull that.

The state also has the option to order that ALL evidence they have for every case be turned over to the state or at least the Provo PD as part of the transition process.

So to me it sounds like the state is aware of the possibility they may try to pull something and they are taking steps on their own to prevent it from happening.

I'm not Consiglieri but this is exactly where I was going. It seems any misdeeds and records committed while they were certified would still be subject to state law and subpoena.

But I wouldn't put it past them to try to wriggle off the hook by claiming they are now private. Any decent judge would see that as tap dancing a mile away.

Wait....does Utah have any decent judges?

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:45 pmWait....does Utah have any decent judges?

Considering that the Judges on the State Records Committee at least have repeatedly found BYU in violation of GRAMA. Judge Laura Scott is the one who remarked that BYU was trying to "have it's cake and east it too" in her ruling against BYU. So there are at least some there.

I'm not a Utah resident, so I don't have any skin in the game, but to me it seams like the church has lot a lot of their influence over the last few years and people are not afraid anymore to take stands against them. Judge Scott, the attempt to push though single party recording laws, etc.

Maybe that says more about the current state of the church than anything. The church can't throw its weight around and expect everyone to fall in line. People are not afraid to start up against them. That says how far they have fallen.

BYU got themselves into this mess by allowing their "Honor Code Committee" free reign to institutionalize religious abuse. They could get out if this mess by having an "Ethics Code Committee" to counteract the deleterious effects of that bogus honor code stuff. There is nothing honorable in allowing tyranny by zealots.