NOM

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:44 am**

I don't know why I keep doing this stuff. My MIL and I have a good relationship our discussion can get intense. I don't write her emails too often, but here is the last one.

Now you’re going to hate me. Which parts of the bible do you choose to believe in?

This is a timeline of the Old Testament.
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/c ... 49_prt.jpg

• Notice the year of Noah’s Flood. (approx. 2350 B.C.)
• Notice the year of the Tower of Babel and The Bro. of Jared leaving for America. (approx. 2280 B.C.)

Let’s just make the math easy and say the Tower of Babel was 100 years after the flood.

I suppose this is the church’s official position regarding the flood of Noah.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/noah? ... g&letter=n
1. The tradition of a great flood is found in nearly every ancient culture. A Babylonian account closely resembles the record in the Bible, but the biblical account differs from all others in its religious value and the purpose of it. The scriptural account teaches that the Flood was sent to cleanse the earth because of the wickedness of the people. Noah and his family were saved because they were righteous (Gen. 6:9; Moses 8:27). The authenticity of the Genesis account of the Flood is confirmed by latter-day revelation as recorded in Moses 7:34, 42–43; 8:8–30. See also Ether 13:2.

Here is a description of Babylon. Don’t forget, the world was completely submerged only 100 years previously and all other humans were killed. Also, basically all the other wildlife was killed since Noah had to take “2 of each kind” into the ark.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/babylon?lang=eng
• Side note, it’s ironic the Bible Dictionary references Herodotus to provide supporting information about Babylon. Anyone who reads Herodotus would never see him supporting the bible events. The LDS church using Herodotus to support Babylon is the very definition of “Cherry Picking”.

How did the world become evil enough that God would “confound their languages” at the Tower of Babel in only 100 years? How were there enough people on the earth to do anything when everyone else was killed 100 years previously?

How did the Chinese, Indian, Akkadian, and Ancient American Tribes all survive the flood? These all have unbroken genealogies around the time of the Flood.

Just a reminder, the story of the Flood and Tower of Babel are real. Totally, completely, literally real. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/the- ... 1?lang=eng . This article is from 1998. (If you don’t want to read the article, is says the Flood of Noah and Tower of Babel are totally real. Even though many people don’t believe it’s real, as Mormons we choose to believe it’s real. Mormons know it’s real because Joseph Smith said it’s real.)

You asked how so many people could believe in all this if it’s just fake?
Apparently, a lot – about 60% of Americans. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... 955-2061r/
Around 50% of Americans believe in the literal Bible creation story.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... rrant.html
In this article, it appears there is a trend forming, albeit slow and steady. It show declining people believe the bible literally, while increasing in people who take it as tall tales.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three ... d-god.aspx

Please don’t be too mad at me. I’m not trying to hurt you but simply help you see a bright new world that you never knew existed. I never knew it existed until recently. You asked last night what we believed about the bible and we answered, even though it was hard to say and hard to hear.

I really like this quote from Pres. J. Reuben Clark
“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed be investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:26 pm**

That's a fact filled and kindly reasoned email to her. She may still reject it as the reasoning of men. Mormonism is still far too adolescent to handle criticism for the most part. If you had sent this email to Patrick Mason, Richard Bushman, Tyrell Givens, or MIchael Ash you probably would get a reasoned response involving didactic teaching and nuanced understanding. But instead you will probably get an uneasy silence that means you have won the battle but lost the war. Good luck going forward. If you have somehow found a way to break through orthodox LDS understanding then we will all benefit.

Posted: **Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:50 pm**

Not that I would ever plagiarize your letter, but I may use this in the future. Thanks for laying these out so well. The arc was the first cracking in the shelf for me. It is good to see these LDS resources that are so rediculous.

Let us know how/if she respinds.

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:17 pm**

According to the time chart, it looks like Noah was either the Brother of Jared's father, or grandfather or possibly great grandfather, through Shem or possibly Japeth. In fact I would think that Jared would have known Noah and Shem quite well, since they lived long after the Jaredites took off for America. Do we conclude that Nimrod is the son, grandson, or great grandson of Noah as well, through Ham? Aunt Egyptus, and cousin Pharoah figure in there as well. Family reunions must have been dang hectic in those days.

That Old Testament time chart is bugging me. It seems to indicate Noah lived over a thousand years. Everybody knows Noah died at 950 years.

Imhotep (2650-2600 BC), a famous Egyptian Chancellor/High Priest died 150 years before the flood. Hmmmmmm...........

The fifth Egyptian dynasty was from @ 2494-2345, so it ended about the same time as the flood.........
The sixth dynasty (2345- 2181) would have started right after the flood. but they don't mention a flood. And they were all descended from Egyptus anyway, who couldn't have been born until @2350, so really Egyptus, who isn't mentioned in the Egyptian chronology,and her son Pharoah, must have started the 5th dynasty...... things aren't adding up.

Later.........
This is still bugging me.

OK, the flood happens @ 2350 BC. Noah (born @ 2950) is @600 years old. Japeth, Shem and Ham (born around 2480-2460 are around 110- 130 years old. They may have had kids, but those must have been drowned because only 8 souls were saved on the ark according to the Bible. Then @ 2275 a bunch of people, all who were born AFTER the flood (so the oldest was @ 75, excluding the previously named 8) got together and built the Tower of Babel. Nimrod, Jared etc. couldn't have been more than 4 generations away from Noah, and 3 away from Japeth, Shem and Ham. Hmmmmmmm..............

I need to get a life. Good night.

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:57 pm**

deacon blues wrote:This is still bugging me. OK, the flood happens @ 2350 BC. Noah (born @ 2950) is @600 years old. Japeth, Shem and Ham (born around 2480-2460 are around 110- 130 years old. They may have had kids, but those must have been drowned because only 8 souls were saved on the ark according to the Bible. Then @ 2275 a bunch of people, all who were born AFTER the flood (so the oldest was @ 75, excluding the previously named 8) got together and built the Tower of Babel. Nimrod, Jared etc. couldn't have been more than 4 generations away from Noah, and 3 away from Japeth, Shem and Ham. Hmmmmmmm..............

I need to get a life. Good night.

Read and study Tolkien's "The Silmarillion" instead. It has a much better fictitious history and is arguably more inspiring. Tolkien took much greater care to craft timelines, family relations, and events in his alternate history. The story still fits within the pre-history of our own earth where Christianity and Tolkien's favored Catholicism eventually arise. There are arguably a great number of devoted Tolkien fans than there are devoted Joseph Smith fans.

Posted: **Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:43 pm**

Would love to hear her response! Well done thou good and faithful servant.

Posted: **Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:15 pm**

No response.

I've basically given up trying. I don't really care if they agree with me, I just want to be understood. I'm not.

I've been in a bad place for a while. Just lost feeling or caring for much of anything anymore.

Posted: **Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:02 am**

Korihor wrote:No response.

I've basically given up trying. I don't really care if they agree with me, I just want to be understood. I'm not.

I've been in a bad place for a while. Just lost feeling or caring for much of anything anymore.

It is a difficult road, for sure. I feel like I'm often forced to be the one that is trying to understand the TBM, since nobody else understands me except my gay brother. It makes me understand who I was when I was a TBM, which helps some, but sometimes makes it worse.

If only it could be more of a two-way street, but TBMs think they already understand us. We've lost the spirit, we've sinned, we've been led away by Satan, we're angry and bitter. Trying to understand us better makes them feel like their position is weaker.

I'm here for you if you ever need to just talk it out of your system.

Posted: **Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:19 am**

They DO understand you. That is why they are too terrified to go there. They catch a glimps of the abyss and run screaming back to the shelter of their little cave. I think 90% of TBMs know that if they really look at their beliefs, they will find no substance. Maybe mirage is a better analogy than cave. When you see a mirage out in the desert, you know it isn't really water. Water has growing things around it. But people can be so desperate for water, and a mirage gives them hope, even if they suspect it is really just a mirage, they run toward what they desperately want to believe is water. Well, and if the whole group is heading that way, that just confirms that it must be water. So, at that point, you can listen to the logical person who says, "no, let's keep going north because that is what the map says is where the nearest water is." People can know that the logical guy with the map is correct, but they are not willing to give up on the group and the hope.

So, just keep heading north and keep loving your people. It takes people time and many exposures to the problems and deficiencies of the church for the problems to outweigh the hope. Give your people time to digest each of the things you point out and to see that you are not a miserable apostate, but there is happiness to be found by following your path. They need time to see that you didn't die of thirst by following your logical map, and they need to be willing to give up the easy hope of the mirage and accept the difficult hope of the map. See, the believers have it backwards, it is harder to give up what you believe than to hang onto it. Following the map takes more real faith in yourself and what you know to be true. Running after the simple but false mirage is easy. But what they are chasing isn't there.

Do you have people in real life who do understand? It really helps us accept that our loved ones don't understand the way we want them to, if we can talk face to face with other NOMs.

Posted: **Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:28 am**

alas wrote:Do you have people in real life who do understand? It really helps us accept that our loved ones don't understand the way we want them to, if we can talk face to face with other NOMs.

I have real world friendships with several people on this board. They are my Saviors - as well as everyone else here.
I've learned it's OK to have bad days. It's OK to be mad, angry and happy. I'm in a rut - so what, it'll pass eventually.

Posted: **Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:39 am**

Korihor wrote:
alas wrote:Do you have people in real life who do understand? It really helps us accept that our loved ones don't understand the way we want them to, if we can talk face to face with other NOMs.
I have real world friendships with several people on this board. They are my Saviors - as well as everyone else here.
I've learned it's OK to have bad days. It's OK to be mad, angry and happy. I'm in a rut - so what, it'll pass eventually.

I can confirm that I have been to lunch and some other social events with Brother Korihor. These events may have included "loud laughter" and "evil speaking of the Lord's anointed". There was less "taking of the name of God in vain" than you might suspect. But we did stay away from the "unholy and impure practices".

Posted: **Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:08 pm**

alas wrote: I think 90% of TBMs know that if they really look at their beliefs, they will find no substance.

I think it's more like they are comfortable and cozy where they are, enjoy their experience, and don't want that to be shaken, so they (as I did for a while) avoid thinking about the various issues and/or obey the instructions to not look at this, not read that, ignore these things...
Having someone in their entourage who has transitioned/left would make a TBM much more scared.
As a philosophy teacher of mine once said, nothing is more pleasant than fanaticism.

NOM

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