NOM

You can't just mess with people's lives like that, call it revelation, and then shrug it off. People died.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:02 am You can't just mess with people's lives like that, call it revelation, and then shrug it off. People died.

QFT.

"We don't ask for apologies, nor do we give them."

- Some guy I heard about.

This abrupt flip surely points to a much bigger bleed of members and money from the Church as a result of it. If they are willing to change this, what else is there to come?

It’s obscene that they have not offered an apology over this. And yet not surprising.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:02 am You can't just mess with people's lives like that, call it revelation, and then shrug it off. People died.

Can I get an AMEN?

I hope even some TBMs can see through the hocus pocus:

Hocus: when they enacted the policy they let the most LGBT friendly apostle, Christoferson, be the spokesman/fall guy

Pocus: when they change it back, the most LGBT hateful apostle, Oaks, gets to be the hero.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:02 am You can't just mess with people's lives like that, call it revelation, and then shrug it off. People died.

How do you apologize without admitting you have no actual revelation from God?

They're screwed on that front and are hoping members will just blindly accept and not think about it.

This is just a test to see how stupid Mormons are.

Odds are the baseline average is sub-70.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:39 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:02 am You can't just mess with people's lives like that, call it revelation, and then shrug it off. People died.

How do you apologize without admitting you have no actual revelation from God?

They're screwed on that front and are hoping members will just blindly accept and not think about it.

Most member couldn’t care less. They will just accept it, maybe be glad because the POX felt wrong. But all members with any real conscience left the church over this policy when it first came out.



Hmmmmmm, I just realized that I included my own spouseman in that statement about anyone with a real conscience. I think he is actually more unMormon than he realizes. He is certainly a Progressive Mormon, but sticks around out of habit without really analyzing what he really believes. It is kind of like his politics. Until Trump, he called himself a republican, but his values and the legislation he wanted was all supported by the Democrats and fought by republicans. As in he wanted Obama care, back when Obama was still pres, and I think he voted for Obama over Mitt. So, he is kind of Mormon/republican by tradition but not by his values. He supports gay marriage and even drove our daughter and her partner to California for them to get married when it was legal in Cali but not Utah. He just doesn’t want to think about it all. Which of course makes me crazy.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:39 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:02 am You can't just mess with people's lives like that, call it revelation, and then shrug it off. People died.

How do you apologize without admitting you have no actual revelation from God?

They're screwed on that front and are hoping members will just blindly accept and not think about it.

I'd say they're exactly right for 95% of members.

"Yay! They changed the policy that I was initially uneasy with but then later decided that it was true revelation because they told me that's what it was! Isn't revelation great!?"

The very positive policies announced this morning should help affected families. In addition, our members’ efforts to show more understanding, compassion and love should increase respect and understanding among all people of goodwill.

So... what. God didn't care about these families four years ago? Why not "reveal" these "positive policies" then? Why did kids have to die to make this happen?

This isn't revelation. This is the church reacting to a lot of bad press and pressure to stop the trend of people leaving.

Sorry for multiple subsequent posts... but I just went back to review RMN's talk about the LGBT policy back in 2016...

lds.org

[W]e (the Q15) wrestled at length to understand the Lord’s will in this matter. Ever mindful of God’s plan of salvation and of his hope for eternal life for each of his children, we considered countless permutations and combinations of possible scenarios that could arise. We met repeatedly in the temple in fasting and prayer, and sought further direction and inspiration. And then when the Lord inspired his prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, to declare the mind and the will of the Lord, each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation. It was our privilege as apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson.

This policy was deliberately, intentionally, and thoughtfully put into place. They knew exactly who they were targeting and the impact it would have on them. What they didn't count on was the backlash that would come from it.

It is obvious that whoever leaked this policy change had more inspiration as to how harmful it would be than the entire Q15 combined.

When Oaks says this "very positive" change in policy "should help affected families" he means his own family. They are trying to save their own skins. They are trying to stop the flow out and somehow prevent being known as the leaders at the helm when the entire thing fell apart and sank.

Ok. I'll stop posting now. Sorry. Thank you.

As I drove into work today, I went up South Temple, past the Administrative Building, and for one of the first times I really just looked around more. It's interesting that Kirton & McConkie's building is right across the street, just west of the Administrative Building. I'd never really paid much attention to that, but this time I did.

I didn't know about this policy change until reading posts today (since I've been really sick lately and not online much). But truth be told--I bet there are heads rolling over there in the K&M building. I mean really! The policy, put in place in the past, probably originated over litigation concerns about TSCC having such a hardline policy on gay marriage and the then growing trend of gay couples adopting or having children from previous relationships.

Church statisticians have probably looked at the numbers and seen the exedous of membership, have discussed it with focus groups and others, and approached leadership to say: "Hey,...there is a problem here guys...." And THEN there were big discussions with K&M about how much litigation exposure REALLY exists if they reverse the policy. After all, what value is a church where everyone leaves?...and does the litigation exposure really justify a policy that cleans out the members?

This just in from the Newsroom:

Today the highest leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints admitted that they just realized Reddit is right. They really are just a bunch of bigoted old white dudes who don't know what the f**k they're talking about. In a simultaneous announcement they revealed that the "Holiness To The Lord" sign on the temple will be changed to "You Damn Kids Get Off The Lawn!"

græy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:28 pm Sorry for multiple subsequent posts... but I just went back to review RMN's talk about the LGBT policy back in 2016...

lds.org

[W]e (the Q15) wrestled at length to understand the Lord’s will in this matter. Ever mindful of God’s plan of salvation and of his hope for eternal life for each of his children, we considered countless permutations and combinations of possible scenarios that could arise. We met repeatedly in the temple in fasting and prayer, and sought further direction and inspiration. And then when the Lord inspired his prophet, President Thomas S. Monson, to declare the mind and the will of the Lord, each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation. It was our privilege as apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson.

This policy was deliberately, intentionally, and thoughtfully put into place. They knew exactly who they were targeting and the impact it would have on them. What they didn't count on was the backlash that would come from it.

It is obvious that whoever leaked this policy change had more inspiration as to how harmful it would be than the entire Q15 combined.

When Oaks says this "very positive" change in policy "should help affected families" he means his own family. They are trying to save their own skins. They are trying to stop the flow out and somehow prevent being known as the leaders at the helm when the entire thing fell apart and sank.

Ok. I'll stop posting now. Sorry. Thank you.

It is OK to multiple post when you are upset, and this is one of those times.

I am finding myself upset at the 15’s outright stupidity at putting this policy into place without questioning their own “revelation”, then revoking it without so much as saying “oops”. How in hell can they not see that POX was a terrible idea to begin with? And then, after a mass exodus over it happened within weeks, they just double down that it was *so* revelation, and not examine what people were saying about you don’t punish children for their parents’s choices. And then as soon as all those who are going to leave over this have given up and left, they throw President Monson under the bus and revoke it without so much as admitting they are not infallible.

All I can say is that the Q15 must be downright evil. They don’t stop hurting people because they are hurting people. No, they only stop hurting people when they get bad press over it.

This is different than, say changing a policy of not ordaining blacks that has been in place for 150 years. No apology required for correcting something they did not put in place. It would have been nice for them to explain and apologize for their predecessor’s actions, but they were not DIRECTLY responsible for it.

But this......just in 2016, Rusty was trying to convince us all it was the will of God that children be punished for parent’s behavior and that making your sexual behavior legal by getting married was worse than “living in sin” as an unmarried couple. Their POX was downright vindictive in punishing gays for getting married. It was not to uphold any “morality” because unmarried gays acting on their homosexual desires were only disfellowshipped. They didn’t want gays to be allowed to make their relationship legal, so they got vindictive when they lost the fight. If it had really been about morality, it would have recognized that sex outside of a committed relationship is LESS moral than sex within marriage. But they were angry about losing the battle ver same sex marriage, so they wanted to punish gays who married as worse than those who just had what only a few years ago they were using as evidence that gays had a “gay life style” of meeting up in public bathrooms to have sex with strangers and how terribly moral the “gay life style” was. Then suddenly they change their tune and the “gay life style” is not as bad as marriage and adopting children.


G. D. Homophobes.

Blashyrkh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:25 pm I am an adult I knew their rules and chose not to follow them. An apology? Seriously?

Yes, an apology. Absolutely. This is not about people like you or me needing an apology, Blashyrkh. It's lying to the people who trusted them most about this being a revelation. From God Almighty, for cryin' out loud. For providing those people with fuel for bigotry. For the children and families damaged. For scorned kids who took their lives. For people excommunicated for apostasy that is no longer apostasy.

To the affected children it was not a simply a choice to bow down or walk away. They were told that Jesus Christ required a saving ordinance that their friends were worthy of but they were not. This was intentional and vindictive shunning. People were needlessly harmed by "prophets and apostles," and told that it was under direct orders from God. Yes, absolutely, not only apology but sincere and public repentance and begging for forgiveness from God and from the people for whom they claim to be shepherds.

It's pretty crazy from an outsider perspective to see this BS going on like this. It really makes the COB look incredibly stupid and the membership that follow them even more stupid! It's a major head scratcher. This has made me ever so much more grateful today that I'm not dealing directly with this BS as a TBM.

alas wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:07 pm All I can say is that the Q15 must be downright evil. They don’t stop hurting people because they are hurting people. No, they only stop hurting people when they get bad press over it.

. . .

G. D. Homophobes.

I could not say it any better. It was enraging at the time the policy rolled out, the way they screwed up and immediately revised it because it was so obviously wrong. They pretended at the time that everyone other person was just crazy for not understanding that what they clearly said was not what they meant. Now, they are going to let us know that we were just confused. How could we not understand? It will be left ambiguous just what we were supposed to understand.

What's even worse are those who say this was done so we can learn obedience. It's some Abrahamic test that we all failed. Because God can't come up with enough rules that really improve our lives, he has to throw out some crap that just messes with our minds.

Blashyrkh, your empathy gap is showing.