NOM

The Church is dying a slow death in the western world. Each successive generation is failing to retain and replenish the numbers vacated from the previous one. The great new hope is Africa and has been Asia and South America. Conceivably, if the growth rates continue or remain steady, African membership numbers will start to dominate. Given their conservatism, how will a multi generational African membership influence the Church? How will Asia and South America influence the Church? In 100 years when the bulk of members are coloured and are native speakers of languages other than English, what happens then? How will the Church look, feel and operate like?

Are those new members wealthy enough to increase the church’s wealth? That’s the only increase that matters.

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:31 am Are those new members wealthy enough to increase the church’s wealth? That’s the only increase that matters.

I really try to not be cynical about these things, but I unfortunately have to agree for this generation. The November 2015 policy followed by that revocation in April 2019 is the outward signs of the ideological civil war raging inside the Church Office Building. It's hard to see this as systematic theology when when weak principled pragmatism explains these events. The church will stick with solid financial footing which appears to be more reliable than revelation.

The addition of Uchtdorf, Gong, and Suares into the Q15 is an important move, but still quite small. Adding three men that are a bit out of the usual Q15 demographic will have some effect, but we won't see the results for another 20 years. The church hates to ever seem like it is being influenced by public opinion. The church resisted the changes of the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s up until 1978. In the same way, I think the church is likely to get an African Apostle at some point in the future, but I suspect that they don't want to turn this guy into a stand out celebrity like Uchtdorf became. My guess is that the first African Apostle will be a Boer from South Africa. The quorum will ease into racial diversity with a Dutch guy.

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:31 am Are those new members wealthy enough to increase the church’s wealth? That’s the only increase that matters.

I assume that's why we see the church involved in a lot of investments these days, they're trying to create revenue streams to supplement tithing revenues.

It's probably far too early to tell but what does the retention rate look like in Africa? 20 years ago Chile was the evidence that the church would grow exponentially, but perhaps growth occurred at a rate that was faster than it could be supported. Or maybe a lot of it was smoke and mirrors, baseball baptisms. Today Chile has something like a 10% activity rate, 1000 members per unit.

Will something similar happening in Africa? Maybe members per unit is a good measure of the health of the growth occurring there.

If the church is around in 100 years it won’t look anything like it does today. Just like it is unlike the church of 100 years ago.


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1smartdodog wrote:If the church is around in 100 years it won’t look anything like it does today. Just like it is unlike the church of 100 years ago.


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This was a mind blowing realization I had when we visited a really old 19th century chapel on my mission. It hit me like a pile of bricks that had I attended a meeting in that era it would have been nothing like I was familiar with.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:19 pm If the church is around in 100 years it won’t look anything like it does today. Just like it is unlike the church of 100 years ago.


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A very good point. I am intrigued to think how thongs will evolve.

no1saint wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:49 am A very good point. I am intrigued to think how thongs will evolve.

Spoiler: they'll get even smaller.

(I know it was a typo)

nibbler wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:59 am

no1saint wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:49 am A very good point. I am intrigued to think how thongs will evolve.

Spoiler: they'll get even smaller.

(I know it was a typo)

Le Sigh... Why is it that all discussions of mormonism seem to devolve to underwear?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:14 am Le Sigh... Why is it that all discussions of mormonism seem to devolve to underwear?

Unfortunately, we all know that if you sit your average LDS sacrament meeting, you can be assured that the vast majority of adults are wearing matching underwear. If you somehow publicize not wearing the "authorized pattern" you can get a stern interview with your priesthood leaders and it will eventually affect your social standing. We will stop talking about underwear after the LDS church stops requiring it.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:23 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:14 am Le Sigh... Why is it that all discussions of mormonism seem to devolve to underwear?

Unfortunately, we all know that if you sit your average LDS sacrament meeting, you can be assured that the vast majority of adults are wearing matching underwear. If you somehow publicize not wearing the "authorized pattern" you can get a stern interview with your priesthood leaders and it will eventually affect your social standing. We will stop talking about underwear after the LDS church stops requiring it.

Way too much truth in that paragraph. It's the Godwin's Law of mormonism. Please please please: Would someone with quick wit (which I don't have) come up with a catchy name for this phenomenon?

nibbler wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:59 am

no1saint wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:49 am A very good point. I am intrigued to think how thongs will evolve.

Spoiler: they'll get even smaller.

(I know it was a typo)

Bahahaha!

Africa, Asia, and S. America cannot make it without the tithing from North America. At some point the church will need to dip into its $32 billion reserves.

2bizE wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:20 pm Africa, Asia, and S. America cannot make it without the tithing from North America. At some point the church will need to dip into its $32 billion reserves.

I think the church is trying to cope with this in a few ways. A few months ago I asked my friends in the bishopric what would be the topic of an upcoming fifth Sunday lesson. They said that they had instructions from church headquarters on two major topics: Testimonies and Family Finances.

The finances lesson came around in my ward at the last Sunday in June. My spirit of cynicism flared up because the first half of the lesson was "pay your tithing" with the expected testimonies of how you would have your basic material needs met. This is largely established by testimonies of people who simply "did not actually die" during some financial crisis. It was not "overwhelming blessings" but simply "we made it through and we are pretty sure that faithful tithe paying was the source of the blessings."

The lesson felt like a "Pay your Tithing" lesson in the guise of "carefully manage your finances". This is the LDS church shoring up tithing receipts in one local effort. I am at least glad that they cannot come out and shame me personally for my policy of not paying tithing. It would not produce the desired results even if they did.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:55 am
I think the church is trying to cope with this in a few ways. A few months ago I asked my friends in the bishopric what would be the topic of an upcoming fifth Sunday lesson. They said that they had instructions from church headquarters on two major topics: Testimonies and Family Finances.

There are a ton of directions that come from church headquarters all the time, I don't know that it means a concerted effort to make more money.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:55 am The finances lesson came around in my ward at the last Sunday in June. My spirit of cynicism flared up because the first half of the lesson was "pay your tithing" with the expected testimonies of how you would have your basic material needs met. This is largely established by testimonies of people who simply "did not actually die" during some financial crisis. It was not "overwhelming blessings" but simply "we made it through and we are pretty sure that faithful tithe paying was the source of the blessings."

The lesson felt like a "Pay your Tithing" lesson in the guise of "carefully manage your finances". This is the LDS church shoring up tithing receipts in one local effort. I am at least glad that they cannot come out and shame me personally for my policy of not paying tithing. It would not produce the desired results even if they did.

Another example of "the beatings will continue until morale improves."

Tithing definitely seems to be the priority of the church. It took Mexico about 800,000 members and 100 years to become independent of US tithing. Africa and Asia will probably be similar, so we will all be dead before that happens. The silent generation and most baby boomers, the most devout generations, are no longer paying tithing as they have retired. That puts most of the demand in Gen X.

Despite any declines in the religious division, the other portions of the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can give thanks for the profits.