What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

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Hagoth
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:57 pm

I learned that the Bible is lying when it says there was a snake in the garden of Eden. It was just some dude in a masonic apron. How could the Bible have screwed up its first (and one of the most important) story so monumentally?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by moksha » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:57 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:55 pm
The arm movements always seemed to me like someone's attempts to mimic the poses of the characters in Egyptian art. ♪ Walk like an Egyptian ♪.
Put your right hand in
Your right hand out
Your right hand in
And shake it all about
You do the Kli-flos-is-es
And you turn yourself around
and that's Kae-e-vanrash!
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:36 pm

I honestly don't know what I would have done if I'd known about some of the things in advance. If it had been taught to me from a faithful, yet encouraging, viewpoint, it might not have mattered.

The two things that bothered me most were the penalties (I thought God would execute them, not humans) and giving everything to the Church. I had no answer to the fearmongering of the penalties. The "giving everything to the Church bothered me because I was well aware of pioneer history, and I did not trust that I could give everything to a bishop in a Zion-type setting and be able to actually trust that I would get back what I need. I "knew" that it would be unfair, and that I would suffer poverty while someone the bishop favored would get plenty and then some.

I was willing to give everything to God, but not to the Church. In fact, that might have been my thinking as I went through for the first time, because to give everything to a man was not something my soul of souls could do.

It was a huge breakthrough, as I followed the path that led me to where I am now, to see that if God had not authorized the covenants, I was not bound to them. Then to realize that the Church corporation had already broken the covenants, therefor I was not bound to any of them.

Still, I enjoyed going to the temple. I went often (as I said earlier). I felt a spirit of peace when I went - up until the time I saw a temple worker (saw him twice, then he disappeared, so maybe he was found out) that had the aura of an active child molester. Totally creeped me out, and suddenly the temple was no longer a safe place.

alas wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:24 am
Speaking of looking the temple ceremony up on line, my #2 daughter looked up the old printed version of the whole temple ceremony, clear back in the 90s, when she was about 19. She had always been totally TBM, the most religious of my three children, until she read through the temple ceremony. She asked me if it was accurate, and I knew it was. Talk about your instant apostate. Smart kid.

I think that is part of why the church wants to keep it so secret. If people actually have time to think it through, before they are gobsmacked by it during a high social pressure situation, they recognize just how cult like it is. If temple preparation really went through the promises, people would be horrified that you promise to give everything to the church organization and not to God. Women would have time to decide they don’t want to be given as property to their husbands and him not give himself to them. If I had been given even half of the information about what the endowment really was, I don’t think I would have agreed to marry in the temple. Because my reaction was so negative of this has NOTHING to do with Jesus of Nazareth.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:39 pm

Quite possible. I still discovered meaning in them that made sense to me, and seemed to help me connect to God better. Was/is it all in my mind instead of in reality? Maybe. And I'm fine with that. If I need to learn that it's total nonsense, I expect I'll learn that at some point. If it actually brings me closer to God, then I don't think it's doing any harm (as it does not bind me to the Church and never has).
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:55 pm
The arm movements always seemed to me like someone's attempts to mimic the poses of the characters in Egyptian art. ♪ Walk like an Egyptian ♪.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:41 pm

It's possible that that clip will help someone reading this thread. I think we (humans) should realize that things are no longer hidden, and maybe they should never have been hidden.
moksha wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:36 pm
My misunderstanding, although that video clip is a helpful refresher for both adult members and potentially even apostates. Remember, the secret of the bees is not limited to just believers.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Hagoth
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Hagoth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:55 am

Random wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:39 pm
Quite possible. I still discovered meaning in them that made sense to me, and seemed to help me connect to God better. Was/is it all in my mind instead of in reality? Maybe. And I'm fine with that. If I need to learn that it's total nonsense, I expect I'll learn that at some point. If it actually brings me closer to God, then I don't think it's doing any harm (as it does not bind me to the Church and never has).
I think that's a great attitude and I believe we should embrace any myth or symbol that resonates with us personally, not literally, but symbolically. Even if it is total nonsense it might be a catalyst for a personal insight. If I find deep meaning in the wisdom of Spongebob Squarepants, or The Dude, whether it was intended or not, why not run with it?

Something like Tarot is a great example of this. I don't think there's anything magical or clairvoyant going on when a Tarot reader turns over the cards, and it's not something that I find personally compelling, but I have seen people find genuine meaning in the symbolism of tarot cards, if they understand there is a difference between the symbolism and the magical woo. One person in particular that I'm thinking is amazed by some of the insights she has received from tarot cards. She puts no confidence at all in the ability of the cards or the reader to predict the future, but the symbols are broad enough that she can apply them to her life and help her realize things about herself and those around her that weren't obvious to her before.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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fetchface
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by fetchface » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:35 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:55 am
I think that's a great attitude and I believe we should embrace any myth or symbol that resonates with us personally, not literally, but symbolically. Even if it is total nonsense it might be a catalyst for a personal insight. If I find deep meaning in the wisdom of Spongebob Squarepants, or The Dude, whether it was intended or not, why not run with it?

Something like Tarot is a great example of this. I don't think there's anything magical or clairvoyant going on when a Tarot reader turns over the cards, and it's not something that I find personally compelling, but I have seen people find genuine meaning in the symbolism of tarot cards, if they understand there is a difference between the symbolism and the magical woo. One person in particular that I'm thinking is amazed by some of the insights she has received from tarot cards. She puts no confidence at all in the ability of the cards or the reader to predict the future, but the symbols are broad enough that she can apply them to her life and help her realize things about herself and those around her that weren't obvious to her before.
I like that. The temple can be a good thing for people. I believe that it is for my wife. She enjoys her time there.

Unfortunately, Mormonism is a totalistic ideology so they aren't content with saying that the temple can be a good experience for you. It is a good experience for everyone, no exceptions. So then it has the potential to cause shame in people like me who don't connect with it. I felt guilty because I didn't want to arrange for a babysitter and drive 2+ hours to the LA temple through all of the traffic for something that was, quite frankly, boring to me. It made it difficult for me to feel close to God. It felt so good to let go of the idea that there was something wrong with me for not wanting to do that.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/

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deacon blues
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by deacon blues » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:09 pm

Coop wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:27 am
I realize that posting anything remotely faith promoting on this forum is a dangerous thing to do. But I'm old which means that I tend to do things that aren't that wise from time to time. I also enjoy visiting and find value in reading your comments, even if I don't agree most of the time. So if I offend anyone by what I say I apologize in advance. But before I answer the question let me offer my perspective on the Church.

I believe that the Church is in a state of apostasy and has been slowly going down hill since the time of Joseph Smith. Having said that I still think that there is value in the Church even if it isn't what a lot of TBM think it is. Of course like all things in life, if the Church get too bad then I reserve the right to revisit my decision to stay. And I respect all who have been associated with the Church and are on a different path because if my life reflected some of the stories I read I'm not so sure I would be where I am today in my relationship with the Church. So with that proviso let me offer my take on the question, "What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?"

As I have experienced the Temple over five decades one thing that stand out to me is the division between the live action and the film. What I learned from the live action is that for Adam and Eve to progress they needed to disobey God. While in the live action for us to progress we need to obey God. I love this inherent contradiction because for me life is full of contradictions. Some meaningful and some not so meaningful. And the Temple is full of contradictions. I find working out those contradictions is what makes the Temple meaningful in my life.

All the best,
Bob
I think it's great that you posted Coop. I hope you feel comfortable sharing your thoughts on this forum. In my experience, even when people disagree, they usually show respect for each other.
God is Love. God is Truth

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:49 pm

I often get meaning out of tarot cards, but I think it comes from my subconscious. My inner self knows what I need to know. And someone really in tune with others might have good insight, as well.
I think we are all connected on a spiritual plane.
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:55 am
Something like Tarot is a great example of this. I don't think there's anything magical or clairvoyant going on when a Tarot reader turns over the cards, and it's not something that I find personally compelling, but I have seen people find genuine meaning in the symbolism of tarot cards, if they understand there is a difference between the symbolism and the magical woo. One person in particular that I'm thinking is amazed by some of the insights she has received from tarot cards. She puts no confidence at all in the ability of the cards or the reader to predict the future, but the symbols are broad enough that she can apply them to her life and help her realize things about herself and those around her that weren't obvious to her before.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:55 pm

And that is truly unfortunate. The older I get, the more I learn that spirituality is not a "one size fits all" journey. Mormonism may work perfectly for some. Others may thrive in no religion at all, or in a nonChristian religion.
fetchface wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:35 am
Unfortunately, Mormonism is a totalistic ideology so they aren't content with saying that the temple can be a good experience for you. It is a good experience for everyone, no exceptions. So then it has the potential to cause shame in people like me who don't connect with it.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:00 pm

In my experience, even when people disagree, they usually show respect for each other.
That has also been my experience here, deacon blues. I have never been mocked for my beliefs in regards to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, etc.

Coop, I also hope you will feel you can share your thoughts freely here.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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1smartdodog
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by 1smartdodog » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:51 pm

Time, so little of a precious resource to spend it in a useless endeavor is depressing. All those seniors spending their last years on the treadmill of conformity to a cultish ceremony is just sad.

As I have said before the church will steal your life away. The temple being a worst offender.


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Palerider
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Palerider » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:56 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:51 pm
Time, so little of a precious resource to spend it in a useless endeavor is depressing. All those seniors spending their last years on the treadmill of conformity to a cultish ceremony is just sad.

As I have said before the church will steal your life away. The temple being a worst offender.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep.....

What little time is permitted to "ponder" in the celestial room, certainly isn't worth the "hamster on a treadmill" effort that the endowment session requires.

When seen for what it really is, the temple becomes a symbol for all that is detrimental in the church. A large, expensive, beautifully appointed sepulchre that you have helped pay for but of which you will never be a true owner.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:56 am

Mrs. Hagoth has a disabled friend who loves to sit in the celestial room and soak up its peace as respite from the chaos in her home life. All of the dressing, undressing, gesturing, etc. makes it almost impossible for her to do any of the authorized stuff that precedes entering the celestial room. Mrs. Hagoth is happy to take her, but most temples won't allow you to just dress up and go into the celestial room. She has found that some combinations of temples and workers will. Other times they will just go sit in the lobby. Imagine a temple that was truly intended for the spiritual wellness of the people visiting it, rather than for busy work and checking off lists.

I am fully supportive of anyone who finds genuine peace and healing by visiting the temple. It's just too bad they have to endure all of the masonic ceremony to participate in it. I believe that anyplace can be a temple to you. I prefer the kinds of temples you find in nature that don't require 10% of your income. Ultimately, it seems to me that the temple exists for the benefit of the organization, not for the individuals it purports to bless.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Culper Jr.
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Culper Jr. » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:38 am

I used to wonder what all of the signs meant. I got my endowments post-1990, so I never knew about the penalties. I used to make up things in my mind thinking it was inspiration about what they meant... all kinds of weird stuff. Later I was quite distraught to learn I was basically pantomiming the gruesome death that awaits me if I ever tell anyone about them.

I used to love the temple. I loved the sealing covenant. I still attend because it is VERY important to my wife. Now I HATE it. I see it as holding my marriage hostage and threatening me with a horrible death if i don't comply.

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Red Ryder
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:15 am

Culper Jr. wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:38 am
I used to wonder what all of the signs meant. I got my endowments post-1990, so I never knew about the penalties. I used to make up things in my mind thinking it was inspiration about what they meant... all kinds of weird stuff. Later I was quite distraught to learn I was basically pantomiming the gruesome death that awaits me if I ever tell anyone about them.

I used to love the temple. I loved the sealing covenant. I still attend because it is VERY important to my wife. Now I HATE it. I see it as holding my marriage hostage and threatening me with a horrible death if i don't comply.
This is the hardest part of being married to a TBM. Long ago I told my wife that I would go to support her but that I would eventually resent her for it. In return she agreed and pointed out that she too would eventually resent me for not going.

Welcome to the NOM marriage impasse where neither side is comforted and frustration lives on forever!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Hugs to all of you struggling with a tbm spouse. Sometimes being divorced/single is a huge blessing.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

Keewon
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Keewon » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:23 pm

Random wrote:Don't get bent out of shape if you find out it came from the masons.
I found that part out by stumbling onto a book on Masonic rituals at the King's English book shop in Salt Lake. I used to wander old book stores in those days, and peruse anything new or odd.

As I flipped through the pages I found myself muttering "No way ... No Way ... NO WAY!" I knew nothing about the connection before that, but I could tell this was way beyond coincidence. What I found most disturbing was that no one ever told me about this.

For anyone interested, here's an online Masonic resource: http://www.ephesians5-11.org/handshakes.htm

I learned another thing when I stumbled onto an old copy of the Endowment, complete with BY's very explicit teachings about the Adam God doctrine: The penalties used to be much more explicit, and much more like those in Masonry. People who felt uncomfortable with the penalties before the change in the 90s should have seen what they were like before that.

Here's a blurb (if I may without offense) from the online Masonry source:
The sign of the Fellow Craft alludes to the penalty of the Fellow Craft obligation. The sign is made by cupping the right hand over the left breast, drawing it quickly across the body, then dropping the hand to the side. The penalty that the sign alludes to is "having my left breast torn open, my heart plucked out, and given to the wild beasts of the field and the fowls of the air."

Explanation of the Fellow Craft sign: The action of cupping one hand over the left breast and drawing it quickly across the body signifies the heart being ripped out if the candidate should violate his Fellow Craft obligation.
Double ew!

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:00 pm

Keewon wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:23 pm
What I found most disturbing was that no one ever told me about this.
That's the problem. We think Joseph Smith got it straight from God and so when we see there's a strong resemblance to the Masonic stuff, then it can be totally testimony destroying. The truth should be told up front.
Here's a blurb (if I may without offense) from the online Masonry source:
That is definitely a more explicit description. Doesn't sound godly to me. Sounds more like fear-mongering and secret works of murder.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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The Beast
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by The Beast » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:21 pm

I learned that there really isn't that much to learn.
Are you on the square? Are you on the level?

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