NOM

If the Church went on trial where would you fit in best? As a witness for the defense? the prosecution? Would you qualify as an impartial jury member? As I think about this, I want to think I am impartial. I hold to a belief that if the evidence (old and new) could support such a decision I could find the Church either true or false, but I think my wife and other TBM's would consider me biased. How about you?

I am pretty sure that Kirton McConkie would try and disqualify me as a juror. I would probably just be a witness for the prosecution, but it would also depend on the charges. Such a trial would be likely be on civil charges against it. This is a situation that the church so richly deserves, but is unlikely to ever fully face.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:44 amAs I think about this, I want to think I am impartial.

I'd like to "think" I could be impartial too, but the fact is, I was born into the Church, and spent more than half a lifetime trying to make it work. Sadly, it Just. Doesn't. Work.

So... I wish I'd been able to as you say Deacon: "weigh the evidence" and realize it didn't work much earlier in my life, but that didn't happen. So now, after more than 40 years of making idiotic decisions based on lies, half truths, and feelings that were supposed to be prompted by a ghost... I'm a tiny bit angry, and there's no way I can look at the LD$-Inc. Corporation impartially, or with any sort of unbiased view. I'm an angry witness for the prosecution.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:32 am

deacon blues wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:44 amAs I think about this, I want to think I am impartial.

I'd like to "think" I could be impartial too, but the fact is, I was born into the Church, and spent more than half a lifetime trying to make it work. Sadly, it Just. Doesn't. Work.

So... I wish I'd been able to as you say Deacon: "weigh the evidence" and realize it didn't work much earlier in my life, but that didn't happen. So now, after more than 40 years of making idiotic decisions based on lies, half truths, and feelings that were supposed to be prompted by a ghost... I'm a tiny bit angry, and there's no way I can look at the LD$-Inc. Corporation impartially, or with any sort of unbiased view. I'm an angry witness for the prosecution.

Ditto

I try really hard to be impartial, but I just can't do it with church stuff.

I recall that Boyd Packer said TBM's are not supposed to be neutral, and backed it up with a reminder/warning of the temple covenants. Theoretically, then, TBM's would be too biased to serve on the jury in my hypothetical trial. I've never heard of a critic saying we are committed/obligated to opposing the Church, which is one of the reasons I tend to trust critics more than apologists. I have heard critics who mirrored TBM's by saying something like "I know the Church isn't true. I think saying "I know" is indicative of self deception, though I could be wrong.

I'm guilty of saying I know it isn't true, but with this caveat.

What I mean by that is that parts of the church are definitely not true. Not true principles. Not true doctrine. Not true history. And it is certainly not what it purports to be.

There are parts that are true. It does teach that Jesus is the Christ. It does teach a belief in God. But even those "true" teachings are mingled with the doctrines of men.

But as Paul says:

Philippians 1:15, 18

"Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will....What then? Notwithstanding every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice...."

Better to have Christ taught even in a modified form than not at all. He can then at least slowly draw his children to himself.

So I see the LDS church as a way station. A stopping off point where someone can grow to a degree and then move upward to a truer more accurate belief in Christ, leaving behind the "Legalism" and man-made ordinances of Mormonism.
It is sad that some turn to atheism or agnosticism after their experiences with Mormonism but if they continue to live Christlike lives according to the consciences God gave them, even in their disbelief......I believe God will treat them more as lost sheep that need gathering, than bad players who need discipline.

Where does that leave me as a participant in a trial?

Not sure.....

"

Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will....What then? Notwithstanding every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice...."

Just wanted to say I loved your comment, Palerider. (Not that I don't love the others. I'm talking like a parent here... )

This is the line that always works best with my Christian friends who think Mormonism is a cult. The thought that Christ is the ultimate chess player or martial artist or whatever who can sneak in and turn a soul to himself even if that person has some wrong ideas. Ideas are pretty insubstantial anyways. It's whether in the midst of all the noise of their lives they heard the still, small voice that called them, so they come to know him in their hearts even if their heads are off on some things.

Pretty sure I would be the guy sitting at home watching the Church cruise around the streets of Los Angeles in a white Bronco. I would be listening for the line, "If the garments don't fit you must acquit".

I would probably be the juror guy that the prosecution would love to have on the jury (analytical engineer) but the defense would would want to getrid of as fast as possible because I'm pretty immune to emotional and guilt based arguments.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:16 pm Pretty sure I would be the guy sitting at home watching the Church cruise around the streets of Los Angeles in a white Bronco. I would be listening for the line, "If the garments don't fit you must acquit".

I would be glad to be removed from the jury just so I don't have to sit though the garment testimony. The idea of watching them be modeled is just, eww...

There is no way I could be an impartial juror. Corsair's thought is interesting, I could probably be a witness for the defense on criminal charges, but a witness for the prosecution for civil.

1. I think Empower makes a good point. Criminal charges would require the Church to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course, I haven't clarified what the charges are yet. maybe I should be more specific and do that.
2. A civil case would require that the preponderance of evidence indicating that the Church be guilty.
3. I'm reminded that O.J. Simpson was found innocent in a criminal court, and guilty in a civil court.
4. I should confess that I'm unqualified to talk about more than speculations about legal details, though I think there are a couple of lawyers would post here from time to time. I'm interested in what they might say. My understanding is that civil cases rarely involve juries, (but O.J.'s Unlawful Death Case was decided by a jury) so the question of whether I'm unbiased may not even apply in such a case.
5. I also recall reading a book in High School (1970's) called "The Trial of the Book of Joseph" which discussed a theoretical case (conducted in a law class if I recall correctly), that tried to determine if the Book of Mormon was true or false.

What do you mean IF the church went on trial? It's already on trial, and we are the Prosecution. The Internet is the Prosecution. All the church has is Kirton McConkie.....

I see your point Apoligeticsislying. At this point in my life I'm leaving the door for more evidence open. If the new evidence were to come forth tending to affirm the Church's position I will consider it. And unlike most of my LDS friends and family, I will continue to consider evidence that would disprove the Church's position.
In a discussion (about young women and false accusations) with my wife this morning, I brought up the Sarah Pratt story. I related it in a what I consider an balanced fashion. I can't ignore the witnesses who accused Sarah Pratt of adultery, although when I regard the big picture, I think it is likely they were being deceitful.
When I honestly and humbly consider my position in this universe I have to stand on the ground that I have been right and wrong, I may be right or wrong now, and I most likely will be both wrong and right in the future.

Witness for the prosecution. No question. Against a fraudulent, deceptive organization that isn't what it claims to be but controls the lives of its members to an alarming degree and befouls all of their relationships with its stealth toxicity.

I don't care that the Church does some good things. Take the Church away and members could find those good things elsewhere. But only the Church can give them its uniquely Mormon brand of toxicity.