NOM

Elder Craig C. Christensen at last night's "face to face" devotional for the youth said "Doubts are dangerous" in response to those who encounter issues about the church on the internet.

You can't make this up: You can see the answer here: https://youtu.be/oPkpwEub2G8?t=2520 (this starts about 50 seconds before the above quote)

The way this church attacks critical thinking is so obvious that I can't believe believing members don't begin wondering what leaders are so afraid they'll find out.

Well, he isn't an apostle. But that doesn't mean he isn't a pompous windbag. I guess in reality he's really as much as an apostle as the 12, being's as they aren't really apostles. He an apostle as much as Elder Oaks or Elder Bednar or Donald Trump or RuPaul or you or I or anyone else. But officially he's only Area President of the Utah Areas.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/chu ... n?lang=eng

I had to look it up, I've distanced myself enough from Mormonism I can't even remember who the last few guys called as apostles are.

Now having done my part to try and keep things accurate - what an incredibly stupid thing to say. Doubt is the tool nature gives us to try and keep us from being hoodwinked. Unfortunately, too often nature was wasting her time.

I agree. Doubts are dangerous to an institution that needs to suppress critical thinking to keep people in their box. Dangerous to the individual? Not so much.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:18 am Well, he isn't an apostle. But that doesn't mean he isn't a pompous windbag. I guess in reality he's really as much as an apostle as the 12, being's as they aren't really apostles. He an apostle as much as Elder Oaks or Elder Bednar or Donald Trump or RuPaul or you or I or anyone else. But officially he's only Area President of the Utah Areas.

Yeah - meant Elder but had a mind fart lol.

But yeah - doubts are the one way we can make progress as people to know that we're doing the right thing. The idea that doubts are dangerous would negate all of the progress we've made in science, humanity, societies... we should ALWAYS be doubting and reassessing what is true and what works.

As Hagoth said - the only way that doubts are dangerous is to the corporation that will be harmed by people having them.

This "doubts are dangerous" attitude is why we get so many scams in Utah. It puts the Church in a curious position. It wants members to be selectively skeptical. That's a hard needle to thread.

As always, the leadership tries to focus attention away from the actual problems to the mental state of the person who sees those problems. They never treat the scientific evidence that discredits Church teachings as, well, as scientific evidence.

I'm old enough that I found out many of the main problems with Church history and science well before the Internet was a widely available "thing". I wasn't looking for it; I stumbled across it. It collected dust on my "shelf" until it finally hit me that there was a strong, undeniable pattern to it; that it was Data. I had the distinct thought "I think my shelf just collapsed" before I was aware anyone else was using that expression. (I take some pride in that. )

Young people have it so easy nowadays. We used to have to look through old books in old libraries to find out that Church history was whitewashed*. The Church was good at hiding the evidence.

Until they weren't. So now, apparently, the focus is on dangers of doubt. Oh well...


*(We also walked 6 miles uphill to school through snow every day. )

I bet he would tell you to doubt flat earthers, or any number of MML programs available in Utah county. Each has ample evidence they are a scam. So claiming not to doubt your religion that also has ample evidence to diminish it claims, is intellectually dishonest.

I must say it is bugging me more these days that churches in general get to make claims that are contrary to the evidence, and somehow we are suppose to respect that.


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He does say, questions are "good."

So I've got this figured now...

Questions=good
Doubts=bad

But it wasn't the questions that made me doubt....it was the true answers to those questions that created doubt.

So shouldn't he be saying:

Questions...good

Answers....bad

Doubts..... understandable

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:42 pm Questions=good
Doubts=bad

As we have seen demonstrated many times before, they will be happy to give you a list of exactly which questions are good. For example, "why did God inspire Joseph Smith to write the JST?" is a good question, while "why did Joseph Smith plagiarize so much of the JST from Adam Clarke?" is not actually question at all, it's a doubt in the form of a question.

Alex, I'll take Questions Vs. Doubts for 400. Woohoo! Double Jeopardy!

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:42 pm He does say, questions are "good."

So I've got this figured now...

Questions=good
Doubts=bad

But it wasn't the questions that made me doubt....it was the true answers to those questions that created doubt.

So shouldn't he be saying:

Questions...good

Answers....bad

Doubts..... understandable

Wonderful response. A little later Elder Christiansen says, "I know what I know." When people tell me "I know" without giving any reasons for their response, I tell them, "When you say I know, it makes me doubt you more." If they said "this is why I believe" then I might consider listening to their reasons, but "I know" stifles conversation.

Deacon blues wrote:"I know" stifles conversation.

That's the whole point...

deacon blues wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:10 pm
Wonderful response. A little later Elder Christiansen says, "I know what I know." When people tell me "I know" without giving any reasons for their response, I tell them, "When you say I know, it makes me doubt you more." If they said "this is why I believe" then I might consider listening to their reasons, but "I know" stifles conversation.

Yeah, when somebody tells me "I know what I know" without any supporting evidence, I have the overwhelming urge to condescendingly pat them on the shoulder and say, "Good for you...." and then excuse myself to find a more productive way to spend my time.

I don't actually do that but man, I sure feel like it.

I listened to this entire thing. I told myself I need to know what they're preaching because of my kids. I'm not sure that's a good excuse for such torture.

So what did I get out of it? Primary. It felt like I was sitting through a long, boring primary lesson. These are the "answers" they have for young folks?

Literally: Absolutely nothing to help real people, with real questions/issues, in real life. A bunch of fake, repetitive "Sunday School" answers that most of us have heard repeated for out entire lives. Absolutely. Nothing. Useful.

Jebus H.!

You can tell how much meat was served up here based on the comments. It was like the kids cheeseburger meal at MacDonalds with the new veggie patty. Very shallow, very much like a Primary sharing time lesson, no real substance. Here's one example:

Lemon Biscuit
Everything has a reason. Even sins. I believe going to therapy can really help autocontrol and change of habits.

I know it's some broken English there, but the "Everything has a reason." is the one that really nails it home as far as all religions that try to control the minds and behaviors of the members. There's got to be a reason for everything and those old white guys have all the answers. This is a big driver for a lot of folks to stay in organized religion; it's easier and does not require critical thinking. Flying Spaghetti Monster, thank you so much for telling me how to live my life so I don't have to!