Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

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Emower
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Emower » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:54 pm

fetchface wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:15 pm
Palerider wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:47 am
Ahhhh.... So your girls were changing their pads WHILE men were in the same room with them but the girls were in a stall. Is that what you're saying?
I think I've been pretty clear so far. Have you been reading what I have been saying?

If you go back and read what I have been saying, I'm saying:

1. Stalls should be much more private and shouldn't exist in their current form. They should be small private bathrooms.
2. If "1" is implemented, it is no big deal to make them unisex.

The way we have designed stalls, where basically anyone can peek into them at will, is the real reason there is a problem.

Let me repeat that in another way: As stalls are currently designed, child sexual predators can peek into any public restroom stalls that they have access to the outside of any time they want to.

The idea that the current system is great but that transgender people are coming along and ruining everything is a false one.
Essentially, individual crapping stations that are truly private. A bunch of individual little bathrooms. Solves. The. Problem. I am going to agree here. It becomes a non-issue.

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:09 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:50 am
Just sayin'.....

https://www.christian.org.uk/news/girls ... l-toilets/
The Christian Institute wrote:One mother said: “The cubicles were open at the bottom and top so older pupils can easily climb up the toilets and peer over.”
Again, open cubicles are inadequate in many situations, and doors and walls that go from ceiling to floor solve the issues.
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fetchface
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by fetchface » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:21 pm

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:09 pm
Again, open cubicles are inadequate in many situations, and doors and walls that go from ceiling to floor solve the issues.
Yes, it was a common area for hazing/bullying of kids when I was young. I'm sure that hasn't changed. People (of all ages and gender identities) deserve a place that is nominally mechanically safe from harassment to do their business.

My high school administration, in an effort to combat bathroom smoking, removed the doors from all of the stalls. I think very few of the boys (and girls, I assume?) ever went "number 2" at school. It simply wasn't done that I ever saw. It would have had to be done in plain view of everyone in there.
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Palerider
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Palerider » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:50 pm

fetchface wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:21 pm
Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:09 pm
Again, open cubicles are inadequate in many situations, and doors and walls that go from ceiling to floor solve the issues.
Yes, it was a common area for hazing/bullying of kids when I was young. I'm sure that hasn't changed. People (of all ages and gender identities) deserve a place that is nominally mechanically safe from harassment to do their business.

My high school administration, in an effort to combat bathroom smoking, removed the doors from all of the stalls. I think very few of the boys (and girls, I assume?) ever went "number 2" at school. It simply wasn't done that I ever saw. It would have had to be done in plain view of everyone in there.
I agree with what those above have written but that wasn't the way you described your daughter's experience in California. It was definitely ambiguous. It wasn't addressing the problem as it was described in the article.
I read very well what you wrote.

That's why I asked you for clarification. Were your girls, in the story you described, using a toilet in a bathroom that had men going in and out while your daughters were in the bathroom????

Please clarify.
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Keewon
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Keewon » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:20 pm

Palerider wrote:Just sayin'.....

https://www.christian.org.uk/news/girls ... l-toilets/
I just wanted to say, the whole issue of transgendered individuals & restrooms is something I haven't given much thought to, and so should hold off speculating. I honestly had never thought of the problems mentioned in your link, Palerider. Which is odd, since I have a college age daughter. It's just a topic that hasn't come up in our household. I appreciate views on all sides while I think this one over.

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Emower
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Emower » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:38 pm

I am going to reveal something personal here.

I hate using public bathrooms.

I hate that moment when you walk in and you lock eyes with someone you know, who is sighing in relief as he empties his bladder. I hate sitting down next to a heavy breather who is laboring intensely over something 3 stalls away. I hate hearing the telltale plop as that labor signals it's success. I hate the interactions of "bob" as he claps me on the shoulder, sidles up next to me, and says "hows it goin!" as I am breathing my own sigh of relief. I hate all the sounds, smells, and interactions that happen. I walk up two flights of stairs to use the mens room that is the least busy in order to avoid some of that. Separate stalls would solve many, if not all of those problems. I dont understand why we cant get there. Sure, it might be marginally more expensive, but I think it is an expense that would be happily borne by most people. I mean, who says "I really love the communal aspect of public bathrooms?"

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fetchface
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by fetchface » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:01 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:50 pm
I agree with what those above have written but that wasn't the way you described your daughter's experience in California. It was definitely ambiguous. It wasn't addressing the problem as it was described in the article.
I read very well what you wrote.

That's why I asked you for clarification. Were your girls, in the story you described, using a toilet in a bathroom that had men going in and out while your daughters were in the bathroom????

Please clarify.
Apologies, I read a disingenuous question where there wasn't one.

No, it was a campground bathroom hut-type building that had probably 10 separate entrances to 10 separate bathrooms (and a few showers). About half of the stalls had sinks in them. Everything unisex.

The trend here is not to have a common unisex bathrooms with more-private stalls but to have small, individual stall-sized unisex bathrooms. I'm seeing it in fast-food restaurants as well. It works really well. Nobody cares who is using it because anyone can use it. Parents can even take their small opposite-sexed children in with them to help them and not feel weird.
Last edited by fetchface on Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fetchface
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by fetchface » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:19 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:50 pm
described in the article.
I do have to say, though, that the article was terrible. It was written from a tone of Christian fear-mongering about transgender people, which I hate with a passion. The author can't even refer to the kids as transgender, it's "children who say they are transgender." It wasn't thoughtful and it wasn't about actually trying to think the issue through and intelligently solve issues in a way that works best for everyone.

However, I do agree and feel strongly that everyone should feel private, secure, and safe when they have to use the restroom. This probably has something to do with my spending four years of public school time with stalls with no doors, and having that security robbed from me for that time. No one should feel that way.

The point is that many transgender do not feel safe either. We can easily fix this stupid system over time. We're smart enough and compassionate enough.
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RubinHighlander
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:58 pm

Emower wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:38 pm
I am going to reveal something personal here.

I hate using public bathrooms.

I hate that moment when you walk in and you lock eyes with someone you know, who is sighing in relief as he empties his bladder. I hate sitting down next to a heavy breather who is laboring intensely over something 3 stalls away. I hate hearing the telltale plop as that labor signals it's success. I hate the interactions of "bob" as he claps me on the shoulder, sidles up next to me, and says "hows it goin!" as I am breathing my own sigh of relief. I hate all the sounds, smells, and interactions that happen. I walk up two flights of stairs to use the mens room that is the least busy in order to avoid some of that. Separate stalls would solve many, if not all of those problems. I dont understand why we cant get there. Sure, it might be marginally more expensive, but I think it is an expense that would be happily borne by most people. I mean, who says "I really love the communal aspect of public bathrooms?"
Yeah I'm with you on this one; hanging out with cooworkers in the bathrooms is really unpleasant at times. Especially when some big dude exits right as you enter and he just dealt with a super street burrito and now there's a stinkfest denial of service situation on the whole bathroom! The worst I ever had to deal with was my time in the army in the early 80's - some of the old WW2 barracks had completely open/no divider thrones were you had to do you business with a dozen other poor bastards! :roll:
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:22 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:38 am
alas wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:33 am
Oaks knows that if people are really born with no clear indication if they are male or female, or with male chromosomes and a female body, that his view of the plan of salvation is called into question. That is exactly why he has fits about the whole thing. He knows that science proves him wrong and he just can’t stand to be wrong.

He wants life to be simple and it isn’t.
That's such a great way to frame what Oaks is doing, but that past really explains why most members simply refuse to look at information that proves this church isn't true while at the same time being open to new information in literally *anything* else when it comes to science, advancement in knowledge, etc.
It is somewhat sad and comical to watch this bigoted old man struggle with this issue. Packer had the same problem. Oaks being a judge in Utah's highest court, now claiming to be an Apostle for Jesus, having his dreams for winning the war against the gay community dashed in CA and then in UT by the Feds, it's got to be so frustrating to wonder why God has not answered his prayers! And now he just can't leave it alone, none of them seem to be able to just stop talking about it and they just keep digging into these social issues deeper and deeper into the abyss of ignorance. Every time they7 open their mouths about it they keep making themselves look worse, with every stupid speech they give over that pulpit, all in the name of their God. Maybe that's why there was a theme this conference about unanswered prayers, because the old Coblers are not getting the answers they want. Look how RSM threw God under the bus when he talked at BYU last month because of the POX policy/revelation debacle. They just can't leave it alone! Maybe the next generation of slightly younger board members...er Apostles will be better at just steering clear of the muddy rapid social waters.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Hagoth
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Hagoth » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:47 am

fetchface wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:01 pm
That's why I asked you for clarification. Were your girls, in the story you described, using a toilet in a bathroom that had men going in and out while your daughters were in the bathroom????
This question has nothing to do with me, but I will describe the bathroom I mentioned in Ireland which was at a major tourist attraction. It was arranged like a restroom in the US but Men, women, and children of both genders were all using the same restroom. there was a wall of stalls that contained only toilets. I'm pretty sure there were also urinals. Everyone used the same row of basins for hand washing. Once the surprise wears off you realize these people are just going to the bathroom and that we have unnecessarily politicized the most basic function that all humans share, next to breathing, eating and drinking water, the last two of which were also politicized along lines of skin color until the mid-20th century.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Hagoth » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:50 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:38 am
That's such a great way to frame what Oaks is doing, but that past really explains why most members simply refuse to look at information that proves this church isn't true while at the same time being open to new information in literally *anything* else when it comes to science, advancement in knowledge, etc.
Unless it has to do with the health benefits of tea and coffee. That's when Satan is at the steering wheel of science.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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