Henry Erying's Big Faith

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Mormorrisey
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Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:09 am

Has anyone seen the latest from the last nepotist, Henry Erying, and his devotional at BYU-light?

https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-fa ... ubt-171824

The one bit that caught my eye, was this:

"It is dangerous to doubt the truthfulness of the Church based on human behavior,” he cautioned during the Tuesday, Jan. 14 event held on campus in Rexburg, Idaho. “Nor is there intellectual satisfaction or spiritual safety in challenging doctrines or policies that seem outdated.”

Two things, if I may. I agree that the truthfulness of the church has nothing to do with human behaviour - but aren't we taught all the time that we need to judge the church based on its "fruits?" Which, by definition, is also based on human behaviour? A bit devious, that.

And with all due respect, isn't the height of intellectual satisfaction the debunking of previously held ideas? That all the advances in science, philosophy, invention, and may I even dare say it, religion, based on the forwarding of new ideas, ideas that lay waste to previously held beliefs?

And this man is in charge of a university?

Holy smokes, my eyes, they burn!!
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Just This Guy
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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:37 pm

I would offer the counter in that we can know the truthfulness of the church exactly because of human behavior. Or more specifically, how it manages human behavior.

We know humans. We know they are problematic. To paraphrase the D&C, They will seek after power and to set themselves up above one another. Humans will attempt to use the power they have for personal gain.

As a church, you claim to be there to teach people how to raise above their baser instincts and to help the world as a whole. You also claim things like prophecy, to be able discern truth, To read and know ancient languages.

However, you show a total lack of ability to use the powers that you claim to have. You allow child molesters and sex offenders into positions of leadership where they can abuse more people (Joseph Bishop, Sterling Van Wagenen, etc). You allow forgers to deceive you (Kinderhook plates, Mark Hoffman). You are always late to social changes which you later claim to embrace (polygamy, blacks & the priesthood, etc). You hoard money when Christ says you should help people. You change the story of how your holy books were written when unfavorable info comes up (BoM, BoA, etc). *Insert CES letter here...*

If it were the church of god, they would know before hand when someone is an abuser and would help the victims instead of putting them in to a position of power where they can cause more harm. They would know when someone is trying to deceive them. You would be strongly adamant for social positions when they are unpopular,, and overtime they the world would grow to accept your stance as being the better one. You would help the poor and afflicted with ever available cent you had. You would be solid in the origins of your holy books because science will catch up to you over time.

These are NOT the actions of a church that would live up to the claims it makes. These sounds less like the hand of god and much more like the actions of men, of human behavior. People who can't see the world in front of them and are always scrambling to keep up with the rest of the world.
Last edited by Just This Guy on Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Mormon 8 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:27 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:37 pm
I would offer the counter in that we can no the truthfulness of the church exactly because of human behavior. Or more specifically, how it manages human behavior.

We know humans. We know they are problematic. To paraphrase the D&C, They will seek after power and to set themselves up above one another. Humans will attempt to use the power they have for personal gain.

As a church, you claim to be there to teach people how to raise above their baser instincts and to help the world as a whole. You also claim thigns like prophecy, to be able discern truth, To read and know ancient languages.

However, you show a total lack of ability to use the powers that you claim to have. You allow child molesters and sex offenders into positions of leadership where they can abuse more people (Joseph Bishop, Sterling Van Wagenen, etc). You allow forgers to deceive you (Kinderhook plates, Mark Hoffman). You are always late to social changes which you later claim to embrace (polygamy, blacks & the priesthood, etc). You hoard money when Christ says you should help people. You change the story of how your holy books were written when unfavorable info comes up (BoM, BoA, etc). *Insert CES letter here...*

If it were the church of god, they would know before hand when someone is an abuser and would help the victims instead of putting them in to a position of power where they can cause more harm. They would know when someone is trying to deceive them. You would be strongly adamant for social positions when they are unpopular,, and overtime they the world would grow to accept your stance as being the better one. You would help the poor and afflicted with ever available cent you had. You would be solid in the origins of your holy books because science will catch up to you over time.

These are NOT the actions of a church that would live up to the claims it makes. These sounds less like the hand of god and much more like the actions of men, of human behavior. People who can't see the world in front of them and are always scrambling to keep up with the rest of the world.
Post of the week!

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Hagoth
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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:24 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:09 am
“Nor is there intellectual satisfaction or spiritual safety in challenging doctrines or policies that seem outdated.”
Unless they are the cherished doctrines or policies of someone else's religion. In that case, knock yourself out.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:21 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:24 pm
Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:09 am
“Nor is there intellectual satisfaction or spiritual safety in challenging doctrines or policies that seem outdated.”
Unless they are the cherished doctrines or policies of someone else's religion. In that case, knock yourself out.
And isn't that statement talking out both sides of his dry mealy mouth when we look at how the POX shook out? Or the priesthood ban or a dozen other policy changes that were either called policies or changed to revelations, throwing God under the bus and past leaders because they didn't have further light and knowledge? Oh my heck, did he really say that? Is he saying the top brass does not get intellectual satisfaction out of those changes? Because it sure seems like they do, especially this latest CEO and his counselors. Maybe he means secular scholars and apostates like me. But I do get intellectual satisfaction watching them stumble around like the old men they are, trying to deal with a world where they just don't fit anymore because they are painted into their own dogmatic corners of a fraudulent cultist religion.
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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by 1smartdodog » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:57 am

If what you claim is true it will stand up to intellectual criticism just fine. The notion that you can not question is the first clue there is a lie in the works.

I think to many leaders and members believe that criticism is a sign the church is true. There is no need to weigh the evidence and make conclusions. Anything that disagrees is not of god.

These are all signs of an organization who is worried about control.

To be fair I do not put the church in the same class as some more destructive cults. To many good people trying to do good. Those in control like Eyring however are responsible for the false notions they espouse.


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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Mormon 8 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:38 am

Eyring: "It is dangerous to doubt the truthfulness of the church because of human behavior".

Translation: It is dangerous to conduct research into the life of Joseph Smith because of what you might learn and just because he was a con man and charlatan doesn't mean the church isn't true.

:lol:

This, from a man having his entire livelihood handed to him on a silver platter by a real estate corporation masquerading as a religion whose six figure pay stub was made public a few years ago from 1999 at a time when he and the church were proclaiming there was no paid ministry or clergy in the church.

You can't make up this stuff.

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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:50 am

OFF TOPIC:

Does Henry J. cry during his speeches as much as his pops Henry B. does?

(Sorry, that was the first thought that popped into my fluffy brain.)
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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by jfro18 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:27 am

I had started a quick write-up of this talk for the site last night before I saw this thread (someone emailed the talk to me).

My few initial thoughts were:

1. This is the same guy that told BYU-I students about 16 months ago that if you had doubts about the church or its leaders to ask yourself "Am I True" first. So in a lot of ways this talk is just an extension of that - if you doubt leaders, it's really because of your own faults and shortcomings.

2. Telling college students not to research church issues is so backwards and dishonest for a place of EDUCATION. He is literally telling these students they are at BYU-I to shut their critical thinking off so they stay in line.

3. If the church had gotten just one big thing right whether it was Joseph's translation of the Book of Abraham, DNA showing that Native Americans were from Israel, reformed egyptian was real, etc... they'd spend every damned talk screaming about how members just need to look at how scientific/scholarly advances prove it's true. Instead it's the opposite - why do you think that is?!

I need to finish that post up when I get home, but I'll be incorporating some of the ideas you all posted here just like good old Joseph would do. :)

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Not Buying It
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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Not Buying It » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:23 am

Why would anyone expect any kind of intellectual rigor or honesty from a guy who is president of a university only because his dad is high up in the leadership of the Church who owns it? This kind of crap is about what we could probably expect given the circumstances. Isn't it surprising how many children of General Authorities get to run universities (looking at you Matthew S. Holland, who worked his way up from a lowly assistant professor at BYU straight to president of UVU with absolutely no help whatsoever from his powerful family name).

Wee - daddy let me run a university!!!
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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:33 am

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:27 am
This is the same guy that told BYU-I students about 16 months ago that if you had doubts about the church or its leaders to ask yourself "Am I True" first.
yeah, he actually told college students that they needed to get down on their knees and repent to God if they caught themselves having questions and critical thoughts. The glory of God is... what is it again? The word I had in mind doesn't seem to fit anymore.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Reuben » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:31 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:33 am
jfro18 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:27 am
This is the same guy that told BYU-I students about 16 months ago that if you had doubts about the church or its leaders to ask yourself "Am I True" first.
yeah, he actually told college students that they needed to get down on their knees and repent to God if they caught themselves having questions and critical thoughts. The glory of God is... what is it again? The word I had in mind doesn't seem to fit anymore.
Conformity.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Mackman » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:40 pm

I agree this is post of the week or maybe even of the year it is so spot on. If this church were true it wouldn't leave a trail of broken families in its wake !!! Prophets, seers and revelatory my ass !!!!!

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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Reuben » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:09 am
"It is dangerous to doubt the truthfulness of the Church based on human behavior,” he cautioned during the Tuesday, Jan. 14 event held on campus in Rexburg, Idaho. “Nor is there intellectual satisfaction or spiritual safety in challenging doctrines or policies that seem outdated.”
"I'm afraid of what it would mean if you stop believing after you compare what happened against what the church says happened or against what you would predict based on the church's claims," he said defensively during the Tuesday, Jan. 14 event held on campus in Rexburg, Idaho. "And I really want it to be true that you would feel intellectually dead if you were to challenge doctrines and policies that seem outdated, because I'm afraid they're weak and indefensible, and that you might figure it out."

When later asked whether students should apply the truth-finding techniques they learn in their degree programs to spiritual matters, President Eyring said, "Of course, as long as they don't do it in a way that scares me. If I notice that I've built my mansion on wet sand, then Jesus will raise me from the dead without Little Henry, and I don't care if that makes any sense."
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by blazerb » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:18 pm

Reuben wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 pm
When later asked whether students should apply the truth-finding techniques they learn in their degree programs to spiritual matters, President Eyring said, "Of course, as long as they don't do it in a way that scares me. If I notice that I've built my mansion on wet sand, then Jesus will raise me from the dead without Little Henry, and I don't care if that makes any sense."
Good thing I wasn't taking a drink when I read "Little Henry." :lol:

I have noticed that when I am around my TBM friends, it is very easy for me to turn off the critical thought processes. I know why I stayed in mentally for so long. Talks like this are intended to make young people feel guilty for doubting regardless of what they experience. Church leaders only have the power that is given to them, and they want to maximize that power by getting people to keep giving it to them. If you can get someone to wall off the church from all criticism, then you can keep them giving up their power (and money) to SLC.

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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:51 am

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:27 am
I had started a quick write-up of this talk for the site last night before I saw this thread (someone emailed the talk to me).

My few initial thoughts were:

1. This is the same guy that told BYU-I students about 16 months ago that if you had doubts about the church or its leaders to ask yourself "Am I True" first. So in a lot of ways this talk is just an extension of that - if you doubt leaders, it's really because of your own faults and shortcomings.

2. Telling college students not to research church issues is so backwards and dishonest for a place of EDUCATION. He is literally telling these students they are at BYU-I to shut their critical thinking off so they stay in line.

3. If the church had gotten just one big thing right whether it was Joseph's translation of the Book of Abraham, DNA showing that Native Americans were from Israel, reformed egyptian was real, etc... they'd spend every damned talk screaming about how members just need to look at how scientific/scholarly advances prove it's true. Instead it's the opposite - why do you think that is?!

I need to finish that post up when I get home, but I'll be incorporating some of the ideas you all posted here just like good old Joseph would do. :)
It was an excellent write-up, by the way. A great post to start the year off right. I particularly liked your 3rd point, I think it's spot-on - evidence, scientific evidence for all Mormon books of scripture is non-existent or left up to the apologists, and never mentioned from the pulpit. It is telling.

Great work!
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: Henry Erying's Big Faith

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:54 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:51 am

It was an excellent write-up, by the way. A great post to start the year off right. I particularly liked your 3rd point, I think it's spot-on - evidence, scientific evidence for all Mormon books of scripture is non-existent or left up to the apologists, and never mentioned from the pulpit. It is telling.

Great work!
Thanks! For the first time in months I had a little time to just mess around on the computer and put it together... of course the one thing I think of as I read is that 99.9% of those who read it already agree, but I've gotten emails from those in the middle (or start) of the "faith journey" and so that makes me feel like it helps on some level.

I have so many fragments of stuff either I worked on or others sent me to do - just need an hour here and an hour there to do it. Work has been just killing me since October. :lol:

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