NOM

My teenage daughter and I were riding around today and a girl from the ward started texting her. This girl had never really paid attention to or had much to do with my daughter, and all of a sudden, she's asking about how she's doing and all. DD was surprised and kind of happy this girl was thinking of her, but me being a bit cynical about all things mormon, wondered what the girl really wanted. Finally, it came; she wanted DD to contact someone and let them know the YW presidency was "thinking about them". After the ask, there were no more texts or attention. DD was a little sad but not surprised.

If there is one thing that I loathe about mormonism, it's the culture of fake friendships. Is there such a thing in the church as a genuine friendship?

A few years ago I started taking a Tae Kwon Do class; mainly for a little fitness and it's fun to break boards after a long day at work. There are a group of us in the class that have become really good friends; none of them are mormon. We do things together after class, we help each other out, go out to eat together; all kinds of things. They love my stories about the church, and know all about my journey away from it. We've kept in contact during this crisis to make sure everyone's okay. We care about each other not because we feel we have to, or because it's an assignment, but because we're friends and decent human beings. When I experienced this in juxtaposition with what I experience at church, it was suddenly so clear to me that I really don't have any true friends at church.

I'm not angry about it and I don't blame them. It's just baked into the culture of mormonism. It's really kind of sad. Once my wife got roped into doing something she really didn't want to do by the bishop's wife. She approached DW asking about our family and all and being really friendly, and then DW was caught off guard when the bishop's wife roped her in. DW asked me how I always seemed to be able to sense when someone was just trying to get me to do something. I replied, "If they're talking to you, they want something. As soon as I see the smile and hear the friendly questions from someone who doesn't normally talk to me... it's shields up."

DD hates going to YW. She is loving not going to church, and skips out on all of the YW zoom meetings, and my TBM DW can't understand why. DW can't understand why she loves her school friends and doesn't seem to have any at church. Tonight, DW overheard me talking to DD about the girl texting her earlier and later asked what was going on. I explained the situation and added, "THAT is why she hates YW. That.. right .. there."

Thank you church. Really, from the bottom of my heart I thank you. You are showing my DD what you are all about and I haven't said a word.

This is something that really bothers me about the church. It actively teaches members to fake friendship in order to manipulate people. I can name six or seven people who are inactive because they were hurt when it turned out what they thought was a friend was really just pretending to like them. My sister in law is the most blatant case I can think of. Her fake friend told her outright that her assignment was finished and she didn’t have to be friends any longer. This kind of fake friendship always backfires. What’s more, it make people so they distrust anyone at church, so what could be real friendships get rejected. I know I have put my guard up and not let people get close, then later I find out they were for real and hurt by my walls. With me it got so bad that I could easily make friends out in real life, but not in the fake social system that is church. Other churches are not that way. But I just didn’t trust them as far as I could throw them.

For me, I first saw it in primary when I stopped going because the other girls were cliquish and, living about a mile away from the rest of the ward, I was just not included in the friendships. There was another girl who lived away from the rest, but the opposite direction from me, and I had heard the teacher telling the girls to be more friendly to her so she would come to church, so I knew. The girls were obvious in their dislike of me. I would sit next to someone before meeting started and they would jump up and leave and come back a few minutes later and sit on a different row. So, I quit going, only to be approached by four of the girls who had hardly spoken to me before. The teacher told them they should include me and I probably quit attending because they were so unfriendly. I mean, it was obvious that I was not included. But as soon as I went back, all friendly efforts stopped. Of course I quit again and when they all got nice and friendly again, I was just nice but indifferent to them. I was 9. I didn’t go back to church until I was 14 and there was a boy I wanted to impress.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 7:28 pm If there is one thing that I loathe about mormonism, it's the culture of fake friendships. Is there such a thing in the church as a genuine friendship?

I think so, but I'm sure it's rarer.

It might be hard for us NOMs to tell, though, because both genuine and false friends distance themselves from us. When the false ones do it, it's because the church collective doesn't trust us and doesn't know how to relate to us. When the genuine ones do it, it's because they personally don't trust us or don't know how to relate to us.

Those who engage rather than disengage are similarly hard to suss out. Why are they doing it? It's easiest to go with the prior probabilities, which suggest that most church friends are friends for church reasons.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 7:28 pm
If there is one thing that I loathe about mormonism, it's the culture of fake friendships. Is there such a thing in the church as a genuine friendship?

I do believe that the answer is yes. Unconditional are few, conditional are many. My observation anyway.

Sometimes the ideas of fellowship and friendship get confused. Using either of the two to manipulate people is undesirable and can leave a bad impression of the manipulator and manipulative organization.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 7:28 pm My teenage daughter and I were riding around today and a girl from the ward started texting her. This girl had never really paid attention to or had much to do with my daughter, and all of a sudden, she's asking about how she's doing and all. DD was surprised and kind of happy this girl was thinking of her, but me being a bit cynical about all things mormon, wondered what the girl really wanted. Finally, it came; she wanted DD to contact someone and let them know the YW presidency was "thinking about them". After the ask, there were no more texts or attention. DD was a little sad but not surprised.

A couple of thoughts:

I don't blame this girl who contacted your DD too much. It's obvious there was a grown member behind her who was pushing this agenda. The adult leader and the churchs' "program" are really the ones to blame.

This sort of thing also works in reverse:

In our last ward I was in the Bishopric and my wife and I had observed a married couple that we liked and decided we would ask them out to dinner. About three quarters of the way through, the husband said he couldn't take it anymore and wanted to know when we were going to drop the other shoe? I asked him what he meant and he said, "Aren't you guys selling something or wanting us to join some deal like Amway or something?"

I was flabbergasted. I said , "No, we just thought it would be fun to spend an evening with you guys and get to know you better." I wondered if my being in the Bishopric had anything to do with their feelings.

They stared at us in disbelief, as if they'd never had anyone in the church approach them without some ulterior motive. And although the rest of the evening went really well, it seemed kind of sad that they had developed that much of a level of distrust in the people of an organization that is supposed to operate on the pure love of Christ. Plus it made us kind of wonder, how do you go about proving your sincerity in a situation that should just grow naturally or organically?

As I see it church culture/policy/programs ruin relationships between people whether you're on the giving or the receiving end.

What leadership are too stupid to understand is that you can't have authentic, caring relationships that are assigned. One automatically precludes the other no matter how much leadership wants it to be otherwise. They seem totally clueless in this area.

What I don’t understand is why the church culture actually teaches and encourages people to do this when it is just as easy to teach genuine love of others.




And




In thinking about how I could ask the question, I answered it. Lower leaders and teachers teach what they are taught to teach. Upper leaders teach it that way because that is how they ARE. They are loyal to the church institution, not loyal to God. They are not loyal to the members and doing what is best for the members. What is best for the members is that if there is good evidence that the BoA is not what Joseph claimed, that they come clean and say so. But they try to hide the truth, over and over and over. What is good for the members is to protect children from abuse. But if there is a choice between protecting children and making the church look bad, or exposing the truth in order to punish offenders and protecting the vulnerable, well all we have to do is look at how they handle sexual abuse by anyone in any church authority. The good name of the church is always top priority. Look at how they push for tithing from the poor. They have warped the definition of tithing from 10% of your increase, to 10% of everything right off the top. Then you can figure out how to survive on what is left. That is robbing the poor to line the pockets of the very rich institution and Jesus would be horrified.

To sum up my point, the leaders teach fake caring for people because they really don’t care for people, only the church as an institution. So, on the ground, this translates to reactivate, not because you care about what is best for that individual, but because you want to do what the church wants you to do and the church wants the money.

alas wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 10:33 am That is robbing the poor to line the pockets of the very rich institution and Jesus would be horrified.

(Is horrified )

To sum up my point, the leaders teach fake caring for people because they really don’t care for people, only the church as an institution. So, on the ground, this translates to reactivate, not because you care about what is best for that individual, but because you want to do what the church wants you to do and the church wants the money.

This is so harsh......but unfortunately it is also accurate. And they justify it by convincing themselves that it is all worth it because they are building up the kingdom. So it's all good. Even if it turns out they're wrong, how could God ignore or condemn their good intentions?

Alas : You are so right , the church always comes first !!! This is one of the many reasons I left for a while !!! You are soooooo right Jesus would be horrified!!

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 7:28 pm Is there such a thing in the church as a genuine friendship?

Yes, there is.

When I was growing up, my real friends at Church were my friends because we lived near each other, so that doesn't count. At college, some of the people at Church were my friends because we lived in the same dorm or shared the same classes, so that doesn't count either.

But as an adult, I have had some friendships via Church membership. A lot of them were . . . I dunno . . . casual? Where we spent some time outside of Church together, but not a ton of time.

But there is at least one that has been enduring. I was assigned as a visiting teacher, and my companion never showed up so I stopped calling her about going - and one family I visited was a woman who had three young children. Because it was only me, she opened up to me, then her husband and I started talking, also.

We've been friends for around 14-15 years I guess, and our friendship has weathered some really serious storms.

But it wasn't the Church assignment that brought us together emotionally. What brought us together was my willingness to listen to her and the many shared interests her husband and I have. At the same time, if the Church hadn't assigned me to be her friend, I would probably have never gotten to be so close to them.

alas wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 10:33 am To sum up my point, the leaders teach fake caring for people because they really don’t care for people, only the church as an institution. So, on the ground, this translates to reactivate, not because you care about what is best for that individual, but because you want to do what the church wants you to do and the church wants the money.

This is so exact. Loyalty to the church, which is not the people who go to the meetings and pay the tithing. The church in the leaders minds is that amorphous entity controlled by the Corporation of the President of the CoJCoLDS. The people aren't even allowed to use the official logo lest the corporation's trademark or copyright or whatever gets threatened.

Since we started sheltering in place, I have had some long conversations with people I know. Sometimes they call me, sometimes I call them. No one from church has called though, and I have not felt the need to call them. My closest friends are found elsewhere. Alas, you have helped me understand. Thank you.

Random wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 2:22 pm
But it wasn't the Church assignment that brought us together emotionally. What brought us together was my willingness to listen to her and the many shared interests her husband and I have. At the same time, if the Church hadn't assigned me to be her friend, I would probably have never gotten to be so close to them.

I shouldn't say this is impossible. But I would say it is the exception rather than the rule.

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 10:14 am I don't blame this girl who contacted your DD too much. It's obvious there was a grown member behind her who was pushing this agenda. The adult leader and the churchs' "program" are really the ones to blame.

Oh yeah, I don't blame the girl. She was totally put up to it. I just told my daughter that mormons are gonna morm.. she laughed and agreed. The girl was doing what she was taught, just like when I was TBM I did what I was taught and I'm sure plenty of people rolled their eyes at me. I like to think that when I was TBM I was different... but yeah, I have plenty of cringe moments to look back on.

I had a conversation with a nevermo friend at work recently that has known me from my TBM-ist days to my present disaffected state and she told me how much nicer I am now that I'm an apostate. Apparently I had sort of this judgy, fake nice, weird vibe she had a hard time explaining. I recognized it as the "I'm an awesome mormon and you should join the awesome mormon church and be saved! Look at my example of goodness and decency and see how nice I am!" TBM persona. Unfortunately, where I live mormons are so few it just comes off to nevermos as inexplicably weird.

alas wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 10:33 am To sum up my point, the leaders teach fake caring for people because they really don’t care for people, only the church as an institution.

Yup, exactly. The church only cares about you in the context of what you can do for it.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 6:36 pm I have plenty of cringe moments to look back on.

I had a conversation with a nevermo friend at work recently that has known me from my TBM-ist days to my present disaffected state and she told me how much nicer I am now that I'm an apostate. Apparently I had sort of this judgy, fake nice, weird vibe she had a hard time explaining.

Oh yeah....the cringe moments....

I have so many of those sometimes I can't sleep at night remembering how presumptuous I was. It's painful.

And my wife has mentioned numerous times how much nicer, more relaxed and authentic I have become. As you inferred, I no longer have this hidden agenda to make non-members into "better" people by converting them to Mormonism.

So much more enjoyable to do good to others because it's the right thing to do and for it's own sake rather than plotting to change someone's belief system.

You know, if the church was half as good as it thinks it is, people would be swarming to it to get baptized. The church would have difficulty keeping up with the demand.

alas wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 10:33 am To sum up my point, the leaders teach fake caring for people because they really don’t care for people, only the church as an institution. So, on the ground, this translates to reactivate, not because you care about what is best for that individual, but because you want to do what the church wants you to do and the church wants the money.

This is so true. I remember on my mission being so concerned about doing what I supposed to do (selfishly, mostly with my exaltation in mind) and I never actually loved the people I served. They were more of an means to an end than anything. And that, my friends, is one thing Mormonism has taught us - other people are a means to an end. You don't serve people because you love them, you serve them because you are supposed to and God wants you to and you'd better if you want to make it to the tippity top of the Celestial Kingdom.

My motives are far more pure now than they ever were when I was a believer.

Besides, friendship, social pressure, and family pressure are all the Church has to keep members in it. It sure as hell isn't the doctrinal consistency or spiritual nourishment that keeps people in.

This was an eyeopener for me. I went inactive for a while before loosing my faith. When I stopped going, very few people wanted anything to do with me. I learned the hard way that they can get something out of you (i.e. church work) they will be friendly, but as soon as they can't get work from you, friendship stops.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 7:28 pm Is there such a thing in the church as a genuine friendship?

I think it is difficult to make real, deep, complete connections with anyone as an adult. It's like the hardware for it dies after high school or college, or marriage. But it's possible to have real connections about some things.

I was just assigned a new minister. We had been basketball friends, and that was real enough. Then he started texting me asking how my family was and it just didn't fit our relationship. He's a good guy, but it was just a little weird. And with my beliefs I am extra sensitive to that kind of thing.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 7:28 pm
If there is one thing that I loathe about mormonism, it's the culture of fake friendships. Is there such a thing in the church as a genuine friendship?

There's one thing I hate worse than this, it's snotty anti-christ YW who are just outright mean and bullying to other girls. Nearly all of our five daughters experienced this to a high degree. Maybe it's because we've always lived within the bounds of the more affluent areas behind the Zion curtain. This is the result of the super special kids narrative I think. Raising them from a young age to believe they are better than everyone else in the world and even better than their own member peers. Especially when they are daughters of one of the "great" families in the ward, checking off all their boxes for super obedient star-on-the-forehead righteousness.

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 4:19 pmI shouldn't say this is impossible. But I would say it is the exception rather than the rule.

Definitely the exception. I was around 45 years of age when this happened.

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 8:18 pm And my wife has mentioned numerous times how much nicer, more relaxed and authentic I have become.

My two older kids have told me several times that I became a lot nicer after I left.