RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

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Hagoth
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RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:54 am

I've been listening to Consiglieri's interview with a couple of exmos-cum-evangelicals (still have 1/2 hour left).

It seems to me that these guys reached a point in Mormonism where their moral compasses forced them to wade upstream out of the swamp until they found what felt like a pure, simple source of goodness in Jesus; a simple message that was about love, peace, and acceptance. But because it was too simple to satisfy their hunger for religious preeminence they abandoned that to trudge down another stream into an equally smelly swamp of hatefulness and condemnation of people who don't think exactly like themselves. And, of course, the merciful, all-loving God is to entirely to blame for all of the ugliness.

I came away feeling very sad.

Could it be that people who are consumed with religious rumination (and I'm including myself here) are basically drama queens who need to create villains?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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2bizE
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by 2bizE » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm

I listened to most of it as well and had similar feelings. These folks had left Mormonism and found faith in Christ without all of the Mormon baggage. I’m glad they have found something that they enjoy and works for them. It was odd because most who stop believing in Mormonism stop believing in God.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:31 pm

2bizE wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm
I listened to most of it as well and had similar feelings. These folks had left Mormonism and found faith in Christ without all of the Mormon baggage.
Yeah, but they just swapped it for Calvin's baggage. It made me grateful that I only had to live with one kind of judgmental fundamentalism without trading it for another.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Reuben
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Reuben » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:04 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:54 am
Could it be that people who are consumed with religious rumination (and I'm including myself here) are basically drama queens who need to create villains?
Maybe?

I think needing to be attached to a fundamentalist religion is driven by the same factors that drive conspiracy thinking: perceived ambient threat, perceived lack of control, perceived need to be superior. A fundamentalist religion or conspiracy theory allows you to name and blame villains, gives you ways to feel in control, and makes you one of the few people who know The Truth.

It's kind of addictive, honestly.

Ex-Mormon communities tend to foster fundamentalism (often atheist) and conspiracy thinking (especially about church leaders and the SCMC). The factors are all strengthened by the church's oppression, and the black-and-white, us-vs-them conclusions are simple and easy to arrive at. Mormonism fosters fundamentalism and conspiracy thinking, too. The distance between mindsets is in some ways very short - only the heroes and villains need to change.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Corsair
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Corsair » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:33 pm

I do not know what draws Calvinists into their belief system. I'm certainly partial to Christianity and would happily declare myself a non-denominational Christian. The Calvinists simply seem eager to tick off virtually everyone in a way that even Mormons don't. LDS doctrine is a bit condescending based on performing baptisms for Jews and Christians who already felt safe in their salvation. But Calvinists simply tell you that either your are in or out of the club and seem convinced that most Holocaust victims ended up in the classic burning Hell.

Apologeticsislying
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Apologeticsislying » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:34 am

2bizE wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm
I listened to most of it as well and had similar feelings. These folks had left Mormonism and found faith in Christ without all of the Mormon baggage. I’m glad they have found something that they enjoy and works for them. It was odd because most who stop believing in Mormonism stop believing in God.
At least the God in mankind's scriptures. That's where I found myself... there may very well be gods, but not in books written and kept by men of earth through time.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

Reuben
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Reuben » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:38 pm

Apologeticsislying wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:34 am
2bizE wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm
I listened to most of it as well and had similar feelings. These folks had left Mormonism and found faith in Christ without all of the Mormon baggage. I’m glad they have found something that they enjoy and works for them. It was odd because most who stop believing in Mormonism stop believing in God.
At least the God in mankind's scriptures. That's where I found myself... there may very well be gods, but not in books written and kept by men of earth through time.
Same. And if they exist and want my faith, they'll have to make a good case for it that doesn't just as easily show them to be monsters.

It's less like I've stopped believing in God, and more like I've raised the bar to a reasonable height, and now few gods of organized religions can clear it. It's exactly what I would expect if they were invented.

FWIW, my #1 requirement for a god is that it doesn't really want to be worshipped.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Hagoth
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:17 am

Reuben wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:38 pm
FWIW, my #1 requirement for a god is that it doesn't really want to be worshipped.
I like that. I will add: it has its own money and doesn't need mine.

I have a comeback that I have not yet had the opportunity to use, but I'm keeping it locked and loaded:

Q: Do you even believe in God?
A: Yes, but not the one in the Bible.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Apologeticsislying
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Apologeticsislying » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:48 pm

Reuben
FWIW, my #1 requirement for a god is that it doesn't really want to be worshipped.
A staggeringly STRONG point. The other point I would have is that it actually has love and shows it...in unmistakable terms, not vague faithy sort of ways. Another one is that it just exists with us here and now. That it's never actually available is just useless and silly. Faith cannot replace absence.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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wtfluff
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:36 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:17 am
Q: Do you even believe in God?
A: Yes, but not the one in the Bible.
My usual answer to this question right now is:

A: Which one?

(If the questioner can actually handle my answer.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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consiglieri
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by consiglieri » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:14 am

Hi, everybody!

Glad you are enjoying the podcast!

I want to clarify that Matthew is the quasi-Calvinist. Paul is not Calvinist at all, but more of an Evangelical Christian.

It seems to me that no matter what Christian belief system one adopts, it ends up having problems if taken far enough.

Hope everybody out there is doing great!

RFM

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Hagoth
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:45 pm

consiglieri wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:14 am
Paul is not Calvinist at all, but more of an Evangelical Christian.
Although his beliefs seemed to align pretty closely to Matthew's, even though he claims to have come by them by a different path. It seems like there's a lot of hair splitting among Christians who are all drifting together in the same flow (and in my opinion totally missing what Jesus was all about). Evangelicalism seems to have a general tone of gloating about your own special eternal reward while sneering at everybody else's eternal torture. And all because God is fair and loving.

RFM, is it just me or did those guys sound like there was some serious cognitive dissonance going on when they heard themselves saying out loud what they believe about the "just" judgement and punishments of their god?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

consiglieri
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by consiglieri » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:49 pm

While I am no better a mind reader than you, Hagoth, there did seem to be a bit of hesitation in the replies you mention . . .

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1smartdodog
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by 1smartdodog » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:12 pm

consiglieri wrote:While I am no better a mind reader than you, Hagoth, there did seem to be a bit of hesitation in the replies you mention . . .
When you start saying your beliefs out loud in public, they start to sound weird even to yourself.


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wtfluff
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:01 pm

Made it through. This one was a bit of a slog. (No offense RFM.) I definitely noticed a lot of awkward silence/hesitation. Loved the bits where RFM basically called them out and asked why their god couldn't just "be nice." :mrgreen:

This episode definitely makes me happy that I don't have to perform the mental gymnastics to force myself to believe any more.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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deacon blues
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Re: RFM and Evangelicals. Out of the pan and into the fire?

Post by deacon blues » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:13 am

Calvinism seems totally irrational to me. John Calvin was a product of his time, but I don’t understand why people still believe that stuff today.
God is Love. God is Truth

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