NOM

So I have detected an anticipation and a dread of the church history year in GD in the nom/progressive circles. I don't know if it was this forum or some other place someone suggested we have a regular posting about upcoming lessons that might enable some more thought provoking questions to be asked during the lessons.

I think this is a great idea. Comparing notes on what people know of different topics could be a really useful thing. Or we could all just not go to SS. I quit a while ago. But for those who would like to go and prod a more thoughtful and complete view of history, what should a discussion board look like? It could be a sticky on this board or a whole different board.

The worry I would have is that this would be a thread that would enable "that guy" behavior in people who otherwise might not. A review might be in order but by front-loading you can create situations where folks are just blindsiding innocent Gospel Doctrine teachers. I remember teaching Gospel Doctrine D&C/History and reading ahead thinking "Man, I hope Bro X doesn't run us down the United Order rabbit hole..." or "Oh boy, Sister Z is gonna want to pick at this..." Basically, I knew my classes well enough to know where the land mines were. I just caution that the Church is a voluntary organization and beating up innocent/naive/unprepared volunteer teachers might not be the best behavior.

Brent wrote:The worry I would have is that this would be a thread that would enable "that guy" behavior in people who otherwise might not. A review might be in order but by front-loading you can create situations where folks are just blindsiding innocent Gospel Doctrine teachers. I remember teaching Gospel Doctrine D&C/History and reading ahead thinking "Man, I hope Bro X doesn't run us down the United Order rabbit hole..." or "Oh boy, Sister Z is gonna want to pick at this..." Basically, I knew my classes well enough to know where the land mines were. I just caution that the Church is a voluntary organization and beating up innocent/naive/unprepared volunteer teachers might not be the best behavior.

I understand that concern. Everyone who contributes may need to exercise some common sense and have some manners. I think most people are aware of how to do that. If they are not aware of it, they are probably "that guy" anyway.
I think lots of people would probably like the idea of trying to make a change "from the inside." Most of us have voted with our feet and have stopped attending. But for those of us who haven't, it would be ideal to be the leaven in the bread. I for one am done bowing my head and not saying anything in the name of not rocking the boat or being "that guy." I will be making a concerted effort to be honest with myself this year. I do feel a little bad for the poor underprepared Sunday school teacher, but frankly no one ever gains much from a lesson that isn't based in truth or even common sense most of the time.

That is completely reasonable. I just worry about shining the light of truth in people's eyes instead of at their feet. Someone will at some time tell a whopper because they believe the whoppers. How do you deal with Sis Bluehair when she asks "Do you believe a 15 year old boy could have written the BOM?" A long, possibly off topic history lesson about the bogus time line where Joseph meets God and then immediately begins translation? Not that it can't be done but what's the ultimate goal? Break Sister Bluehair? Drive people from the church? Reach out to the quiet unsettled sorta believer and help them...what?

Preparing seems to be sharpening the knife not kindling the light of truth. The prime problem with the Church is by its own metrics it's "All In" or "All Out".

When I went over to lds.org there were no teacher's manual of the 2017 gospel doctrine courses available, just student manuals.

deacon blues wrote:When I went over to lds.org there were no teacher's manual of the 2017 gospel doctrine courses available, just student manuals.

Which are pretty darn thin.

From the looks of them this won't be a red meat sort of curriculum. Very shallow.

Not sure about the wisdom of ever encouraging speculative "meat" discussions that take us far afield from traditional Christianity. The "meat" discussion might help cement us as a peculiar people, but the words peculiar and bizarre have too much overlap for a good outcome.

I for one thing this would be great. REAL Church history is very fascinating and helps explain a lot about the modern church, as opposed to what will be spoon fed in SS. Maybe I'm being naïve, but I see it being a thread where we can discuss what we WANT to say in the lesson, and help each other better understand church history. You know, like a NOM sunday school.

Brent wrote:That is completely reasonable. I just worry about shining the light of truth in people's eyes instead of at their feet. Someone will at some time tell a whopper because they believe the whoppers. How do you deal with Sis Bluehair when she asks "Do you believe a 15 year old boy could have written the BOM?" A long, possibly off topic history lesson about the bogus time line where Joseph meets God and then immediately begins translation? Not that it can't be done but what's the ultimate goal? Break Sister Bluehair? Drive people from the church? Reach out to the quiet unsettled sorta believer and help them...what?

Preparing seems to be sharpening the knife not kindling the light of truth. The prime problem with the Church is by its own metrics it's "All In" or "All Out".

I think it is healthy for the church, including Sister Bluehair, to be kindly reminded of facts. One is not hijacking a lesson by repeating the fact that Joseph Smith wrote the BOM when he was 24, or quoting from B.H. Roberts "Studies of the Book of Mormon" to point out one honest GA considered it entirely possible that Joseph Smith had the creativity to write the BOM. The lessons are already designed to avoid real discussion and openness. I think it would be very helpfulto point out the gift of working with the rod/sprout in D&C 8. It is very carefully (read faithfully) explained in the new "Revelations in Context" book put out by the church. We are presuming all church members don't want the facts. Well maybe some of them do.

I will add that there are people in the church: ultra-TBM's who see people like Richard Bushman as subversive. http://wwwldsanswers.org/lds-scholars-...interview Do we really want to let them dominate the the average Gospel Doctrine class, in or out of the Mormon corridor?

Brent wrote: Not that it can't be done but what's the ultimate goal? Break Sister Bluehair? Drive people from the church? Reach out to the quiet unsettled sorta believer and help them...what?.

In my mind the ultimate goal is to remind sis. Blue hair along and all her cronies that her opinion is not the only one you can have in this church. Too often no one says, "why yes, I do believe it is possible for Joseph to have written this for x and y reasons." Because no one will say this, sis. Blue hair thinks that everyone was silenced by the power and truth of her words, when in reality people just don't have the encouragement or the energy to fight with her. I see a topic thread like this as a place where people can be encouraged to express some views that are difficult to articulate without discussion with like-minded folks.
To be clear, I don't want to encourage fighting, vitriolic comments, anger, or the attitude of breaking anyone's testimony.

deacon blues wrote:I will add that there are people in the church: ultra-TBM's who see people like Richard Bushman as subversive. http://wwwldsanswers.org/lds-scholars-...interview Do we really want to let them dominate the the average Gospel Doctrine class, in or out of the Mormon corridor?

My thoughts as well deacon.

deacon blues wrote:We are presuming all church members don't want the facts. Well maybe some of them do.

Totes.

If you can't see the "freshly baptized fervor" in yourself and really want to get this done then do it right! For clarity (because after 2 weeks knowing which posts are responses to what lesson will be impossible) petition for a sub-forum called "Gospel Doctrine Issues and Answers 2017". Then each week start a new thread for that weeks lesson. Keeps it clean. Managing information and how it's networked will be your biggest issue and a unique sub-forum would be the way to go.

I don't think that most people who land on this board to stay are the "new baptized fervor" type?

You make an excellent point. I meant the new baptized fervor of the disenfranchised. Us. Our fervor as devotees of a system where we know the truth...just like TBMs. Makes for a classic confrontation.

Why do members go to church? Guilt, they owe God one. Self, they want to be exalted. And perhaps most of all Bias Confirmation. They're not there to challenge the status quo they're there to reinforce it. Just like missionaries want to bring you into the fold you may need to consider if you want to be "A missionary for the truth" just like the 18 year old from Kearns who dreams of being called to the Vatican City mission.

There is a new addition to Gospel Doctrine class in 2017. Essays on Mormon history, doctrine find new visibility in official app, Sunday School, according to the Deseret News. For the benefit of people on this forum, here is how to get to the essays.

Suppose you are in sitting in Gospel Doctrine class and some nincompoop uses the phrase "fence sitters" or "neutral in the War in Heaven" or "Curse of Cain" in reference to fellow humans blessed with an excess of protective melanin. Just direct them like this:

1. Open the Gospel Library app on their device
2. Open Library, then Church History, then Gospel Topics Essays
3. Open the Race and the Priesthood essay (near the end because it is in alphabetic order)
4. Scroll down to the third paragraph from the end just after "The Church Today" heading and politely ask them to read the paragraph starting with "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past..."

Our friends and loved ones now all have these official essays on their favorite handheld objects (wow, that sounds naughty). Our goals align ironically with the institutional church. We should help them at least progress towards an understand more like Richard Bushman and less like Bruce McConkie.

Corsair wrote:There is a new addition to Gospel Doctrine class in 2017. Essays on Mormon history, doctrine find new visibility in official app, Sunday School, according to the Deseret News. For the benefit of people on this forum, here is how to get to the essays.

Suppose you are in sitting in Gospel Doctrine class and some nincompoop uses the phrase "fence sitters" or "neutral in the War in Heaven" or "Curse of Cain" in reference to fellow humans blessed with an excess of protective melanin. Just direct them like this:

1. Open the Gospel Library app on their device
2. Open Library, then Church History, then Gospel Topics Essays
3. Open the Race and the Priesthood essay (near the end because it is in alphabetic order)
4. Scroll down to the third paragraph from the end just after "The Church Today" heading and politely ask them to read the paragraph starting with "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past..."

Our friends and loved ones now all have these official essays on their favorite handheld objects (wow, that sounds naughty). Our goals align ironically with the institutional church. We should help them at least progress towards an understand more like Richard Bushman and less like Bruce McConkie.

Money. OH, the 2017 GD manual is on line now. (tee hee hee GD...)

Corsair wrote:Our friends and loved ones now all have these official essays on their favorite handheld objects (wow, that sounds naughty). Our goals align ironically with the institutional church. We should help them at least progress towards an understand more like Richard Bushman and less like Bruce McConkie.

Corsair nailed it!

Blue hairs need to buck up and suck it up! The COB approved these essays (albeit in a closet...maybe not the same one they kept the seer stone in.) They are trying to get some of the truth out there for general membership in a milk before meat fashion. If I were a GDT I'd be full on presenting this material now for 2017. If local leaders don't approve then you put it back on them and ask them why? If TBMs can digest it and stay TBM then more power to them. This may be the year where the tares separate themselves from the wheat and the new narrative begins it's journey into acceptance. There's plenty of apologetic narrative in the essays to help TBMs with their mental gymnastics, but at least now some of the major questions that are out there are raised and addressed in some way, even if it's not all the facts.

The essays are a great starting place, but for all their progressiveness they are full of inaccuracies, simplifications, diversions, and omissions. I realize that baby steps are all that can be expected, but for those of us who can't or don't want to stop attending SS the opportunities to shoehorn an essay in once in a while may not be to satisfying. Why not use some B.H. Roberts, journal of discourses, and heaven forbid, maybe some scripture in demonstrating that Mormonism does not have to be one specific set of ideologies? Sure it won't be popular, but it's needed.

This thread is a great idea Emower. It will help us all fulfill our "calling" as NOMs. And Brent and others with GD teaching experience can help us figure out the most effective way to present our NOM points of view. It's time for us NOMs to unite and make Gospel Doctrine 2017 one hell of a year.

MoPag wrote:This thread is a great idea Emower. It will help us all fulfill our "calling" as NOMs. And Brent and others with GD teaching experience can help us figure out the most effective way to present our NOM points of view. It's time for us NOMs to unite and make Gospel Doctrine 2017 one hell of a year.

And if our contributions are done with humility and charity, they will be helpful and productive.