Zygotes on thrones

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Hagoth
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Zygotes on thrones

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:56 am

This question comes from a combination of Red Ryder's thread about right and wrong and an offhand comment made on the IOT Jake Frost interview.

In the King Follett discourse Joseph Smith tells us that infants and children who died before the age of accountability get a go-directly-to-the-CK card and are enthroned as gods in "yonder heavens."

What about aborted fetuses? From the church's standpoint they are innocents who died before the age of accountability. If fact, they are even martyrs because they were murdered by evil and conniving men.

So are there also fetuses enthroned in yonder heavens? If a baby dies shortly after birth does it deserve celestial glory more than one that dies in the third trimester? What about the first? At what point would you say this cluster of 1000 cells gets to be a god, but that one with only 999 doesn't? Do miscarriages get different status than abortions?

Also, Joseph tells us that the infant gods don't ever become adults. "It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God. Children dwell in the mansions of glory and exercise power, but appear in the same form as when on earth. Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature."

Are there peanut-size gods with little nubby fingers, squishy cartilage skulls, and eyelids that can't open?

Or do they get a mulligan and dump their first mortal body for a new one that gets carried to term in different mother?
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Phil Lurkerman
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Phil Lurkerman » Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:34 pm

Following this logic, I’ve sometimes wondered if this means abortion providers are responsible for more exaltations to godhood than any prophet, seer, or revelator.

Fortunately, I don’t believe in exaltation or prophets, so it’s all academic to me. ;)
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Hagoth
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:46 pm

Pharaoh and Herod both performed a great service by ensuring the exaltation of many souls via the slaughter of innocents.
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deacon blues
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by deacon blues » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:46 pm

Yeah Pharaoh and Herod loaded the high speed escalator to heaven. King Follet Discourse offers a frightening perspective of reality. :cry: :roll: :(
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wtfluff
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by wtfluff » Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:11 pm

There's way too much logic and reason going on in this thread.

And speaking of logic: What about the fact that Jesus was visiting a so-called "Nephite" on Christmas Eve... Uh, I mean on April 5th - the night before his birth when he took on his earthly demi-god body. If "the spirit" doesn't enter the body until it is born, what does that say about LD$-MORmONs' views on abortion?
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moksha
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by moksha » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:41 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:11 pm
If "the spirit" doesn't enter the body until it is born, what does that say about LD$-MORmONs' views on abortion?
That there is a slip twixt the doctrine and the policy? :o
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hmb
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by hmb » Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:29 am

I was taught that the church doesn't place abortion on the same level as murder, even though it's a "heinous" sin. The church does not condemn abortion in certain instances. Aborted (naturally or not) fetuses do not yet contain the spirit, so those spirits will get another body. That's why "chosen" abortion is forgivable while murder has limits to forgiveness. That's what I remember.

Wasn't the youngest in Saturday's Warrior miscarried? She was all bummed out and talked to her deceased sister, Pam about it. Then at the end, those parents got pregnant and it was going to be her body. Happiness, joy, and tears all around. Now I am old and remember things poorly, but I think that's what happened. You know it must be true if it was in an LDS play.

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Hagoth
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Hagoth » Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:14 am

hmb wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:29 am
The church does not condemn abortion in certain instances.
Which is also kind of weird logic when you think about it, more so for certain Evangelicals who don't have the doctrine of preexistence and who insist that killing a fetus is most definitely murder and it will land you in an agonizing lake of fire for eternity... except for a few instances when it's ok.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by dogbite » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:49 am

The church's stance on abortion is more nuanced than most members portray.

As i remember it, hinkley said that since we don't know when the soul enters the body we err on the side of caution. Or similar meaning words.

Thus it can be lesser than murder and there are circumstances where it is valid.

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Yobispo
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Yobispo » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:29 am

dogbite wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:49 am
The church's stance on abortion is more nuanced than most members portray.

As i remember it, Hinckley said that since we don't know when the soul enters the body we err on the side of caution. Or similar meaning words.

Thus it can be lesser than murder and there are circumstances where it is valid.
Hey, take it easy on Hinck. How would he know when the spirit enters the body? It's not like he had a direct line to heaven or something.

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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by hmb » Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:39 am

Yobispo wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:29 am
dogbite wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:49 am
The church's stance on abortion is more nuanced than most members portray.

As i remember it, Hinckley said that since we don't know when the soul enters the body we err on the side of caution. Or similar meaning words.

Thus it can be lesser than murder and there are circumstances where it is valid.
Hey, take it easy on Hinck. How would he know when the spirit enters the body? It's not like he had a direct line to heaven or something.
That's what I was thinking. Wouldn't that be an important piece of knowledge to have? No wishy-washy-ness? But then actual murder is also okay in some circumstances. Laban had to be killed for preserving scriptures, death penalty, burning witches, taking out terrorists, etc.

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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Yobispo » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:58 am

hmb wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:39 am
Yobispo wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:29 am
dogbite wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:49 am
The church's stance on abortion is more nuanced than most members portray.

As i remember it, Hinckley said that since we don't know when the soul enters the body we err on the side of caution. Or similar meaning words.

Thus it can be lesser than murder and there are circumstances where it is valid.
Hey, take it easy on Hinck. How would he know when the spirit enters the body? It's not like he had a direct line to heaven or something.
That's what I was thinking. Wouldn't that be an important piece of knowledge to have? No wishy-washy-ness? But then actual murder is also okay in some circumstances. Laban had to be killed for preserving scriptures, death penalty, burning witches, taking out terrorists, etc.
The only really important thing is FOLLOW THE PROPHET, FOLLOW THE PROPHET..... (did you hear the music in your head?)

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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by hmb » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:15 am

Yobispo wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:58 am
hmb wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:39 am
Yobispo wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:29 am


Hey, take it easy on Hinck. How would he know when the spirit enters the body? It's not like he had a direct line to heaven or something.
That's what I was thinking. Wouldn't that be an important piece of knowledge to have? No wishy-washy-ness? But then actual murder is also okay in some circumstances. Laban had to be killed for preserving scriptures, death penalty, burning witches, taking out terrorists, etc.
The only really important thing is FOLLOW THE PROPHET, FOLLOW THE PROPHET..... (did you hear the music in your head?)
...and thank you so much for that. Now I want you to think about FAMILIES CAN BE TOGETHER FOREVER.

Oh great. Now I have two of Primary's greatest hits stuck in my head.

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Hagoth
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Hagoth » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:43 am

Here's what an article from the church website has to say:

When does the spirit enter the body?... President Brigham Young said he believed that “when the mother feels life come to her infant it is the spirit entering the body.” (Journal of Discourses, 17:143.)

A 1909 First Presidency message stated: “The body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is...” (James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1970, 4:205.)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie commented that "the eternal spirit enters the body prior to a normal birth, and therefore that stillborn children will be resurrected.” (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966, p. 768.)

The article concludes, "Some Church leaders have suggested that a living soul does not exist until three essential elements—the body, the spirit, and the breath of life—are all present."

So, it might be safe to assume that there are no gods smaller than, say, a softball. The last statement is particularly unhelpful when it comes to abortion, assuming that "the breath of life" refers to the actual act of breathing air outside of the womb. It cannot refer to the spirit entering the body, since spirit is one of the other two ingredients for life.

So softball, or maybe cantaloupe-size gods. That's what I'm going to picture from now on when I pray. https://youtu.be/qYiWydDyMIE?t=92
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fetchface
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by fetchface » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:46 am

I always assumed that abortion was not murder because it was allowable in certain circumstances (rape, incest). It wouldn't make sense to allow a rape victim to kill her healthy baby after birth, so abortion must not be the same as murder. That's how I understood it as a TBM.

I think that the prohibition against abortion in the LDS church is more about not allowing people to escape the consequences of having unauthorized fun.

I think a lot of LDS people don't understand their own theology and just adopt the fundamentalist Christian line of thinking that anything starting at a fertilized egg is the equivalent of a full human, which is clearly contradicted by teachings of past leaders.

Christian thought has undergone a great transformation in the last 200 years on this subject. It used to be a common Christian belief that the spirit entered the body and human life began at "the quickening" which was when the baby began to kick in ways that could be felt. I think as technology developed in ways that showed the movements of fetuses much earlier, mainstream Christian thought change, but big surprise, Mormon theology stayed frozen in the 1800s since LDS theology only shifts when there is existential danger to the religion.

The leaders have adopted a stance of not really discussing the intricacies of the beliefs and just letting individual members believe as they will, which is what they typically do when they don't face a threat of decreased devotion from a particular issue.
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Just This Guy
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:56 am
In the King Follett discourse Joseph Smith tells us that infants and children who died before the age of accountability get a go-directly-to-the-CK card and are enthroned as gods in "yonder heavens."
Isn't there something about there will be no death of children in the Millennium? Something along the lines of 'Parents of children who died will be able to raise them until they reach maturity and then they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortal to immortal.'

So where ever that bit of doctrine comes from is in contradiction to the King Follett discourse.

Why can't Mormonism get their their theology straight? :roll: :? :roll:

On the topic of abortion, In the 90's and early 2000's, LDS was actually considered a Pro-choice church because they allowed abortion in cases of rape, inscest, or when the mother's life was in danger. It seams like they are trying to move away from this and join up with the Pro-life crowd.
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Hagoth
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Hagoth » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:50 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:04 pm
It seams like they are trying to move away from this and join up with the Pro-life crowd.
They seem to be trying to buddy up to Tea Party style fundamentalist Evangelicals for the strength in numbers. That means a package deal that lumps pro-life together with anti-LGBT and pro-guns.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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fetchface
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by fetchface » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:32 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:50 pm
They seem to be trying to buddy up to Tea Party style fundamentalist Evangelicals for the strength in numbers. That means a package deal that lumps pro-life together with anti-LGBT and pro-guns.
We're seeing Christianity in this country fighting (and winning) more "religious liberty." However, "religious liberty" is just a code word for Christian Privilege. Trust me, we will probably see more prayer in schools but they sure aren't going to be Muslim prayers.

And to most Christians in this country, Mormons are only a little step up from Muslims in the hierarchy. The LDS church wants so badly to think it is part of the club, but I think they will be marginalized like the other heathen when Christians are powerful enough.
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Re: Zygotes on thrones

Post by Yobispo » Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:39 pm

hmb wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:15 am
Yobispo wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:58 am
hmb wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:39 am


That's what I was thinking. Wouldn't that be an important piece of knowledge to have? No wishy-washy-ness? But then actual murder is also okay in some circumstances. Laban had to be killed for preserving scriptures, death penalty, burning witches, taking out terrorists, etc.
The only really important thing is FOLLOW THE PROPHET, FOLLOW THE PROPHET..... (did you hear the music in your head?)
...and thank you so much for that. Now I want you to think about FAMILIES CAN BE TOGETHER FOREVER.

Oh great. Now I have two of Primary's greatest hits stuck in my head.
Hey man, I was kidding and you're fighting dirty!! ;)

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