NOM

I heard someplace if you can make Angles and Gold Plates work everything else comes naturally.

Makes sense that belief in one supernatural event opens your your brain to all sorts of other zany ideas.

Its like being a conspiracy theorist, you see them everywhere.


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1smartdodog wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 11:06 am I heard someplace if you can make Angles and Gold Plates work everything else comes naturally.

Makes sense that belief in one supernatural event opens your your brain to all sorts of other zany ideas.

Its like being a conspiracy theorist, you see them everywhere.


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I think it also takes making Joseph Smith work. As a kid, I could believe in the angel and the gold plates, but there was something creepy about Joseph. I couldn’t explain why I just couldn’t believe that he was telling the truth, but it was like I smelled a liar and I just never could make his personality work as prophet.

I agree. Joseph as a prophet who intentionally and repeatedly lies, manipulates followers, pulls polygamy and Zion in Independence, and the Book of Abraham out of his— uh, out his hat and is SO arrogant that he could say “nobody (not even Jesus?!) held a Church together— that is the thing I can’t make work.

I think angels and plates is a great place to draw the line for orthodox thinking. If the angels and plates are real, you have to accept Joseph as a prophet, whether you like him or not. Kind of like if you believe in the Old Testament you have to accept a jealous, tantrum-throwing, narcissistic, smite-happy vengeful (but loving!) God who ultimately only cares about how humbly you grovel, whether you like him or not.

I have boiled down my entire Mormonism departure speech to, "I just can't believe in angels with gold plates and magic spectacles." It's really pretty hard to argue with that.

"Blah blah blah Joseph blah blah blah Chiasmus blah blah blah living prophet..."

I really, really did my best to believe it. I just don't."

I think an indicator for Mormonism acceptance is rejecting the idea that Joseph Smith made it all up. If he didn't make it all up, then the angels, gold plates, polygamy, the Garden of Eden being in Missouri, Moon Quakers, and the three-dollar bill can all be believed.

moksha wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 2:50 am I think an indicator for Mormonism acceptance is rejecting the idea that Joseph Smith made it all up. If he didn't make it all up, then the angels, gold plates, polygamy, the Garden of Eden being in Missouri, Moon Quakers, and the three-dollar bill can all be believed.

Many of us have tried to dwell in that uncanny valley of Mormon belief where you accept that Joseph made some of it up, but some of it is real. Skilled apologists seem to be able to set up permanent residence there but for most of us the soil is too rocky for our seed to take purchase and eventually we have to move on.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 11:06 am I heard someplace if you can make Angles and Gold Plates work everything else comes naturally.

Makes sense that belief in one supernatural event opens your your brain to all sorts of other zany ideas.

Its like being a conspiracy theorist, you see them everywhere.

I've seen this argument used by apologists too. Basically they'll say "Look if you can believe in magical stones then you can believe in anything."

And on one hand they're right - if you believe in the plates then yeah everything else comes naturally.

On the other hand, it just shows that the moment you're willing to suspend belief for something that not only doesn't make sense but has evidence *against* it, then you are primed to believe ideas that could be harmful or dangerous to yourself or groups in your communities.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 6:09 am

moksha wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 2:50 am I think an indicator for Mormonism acceptance is rejecting the idea that Joseph Smith made it all up. If he didn't make it all up, then the angels, gold plates, polygamy, the Garden of Eden being in Missouri, Moon Quakers, and the three-dollar bill can all be believed.

Many of us have tried to dwell in that uncanny valley of Mormon belief where you accept that Joseph made some of it up, but some of it is real. Skilled apologists seem to be able to set up permanent residence there but for most of us the soil is too rocky for our seed to take purchase and eventually we have to move on.

This describes me, although I can only move on mentally. I’ve tried to think of a way to explain it to my husband. Something like, Do you believe *everything* JS said? No. So you agree that he made some of it up? I guess. Well, you believe he made 10% up and I believe he made 90% up. Can you see how this changes things???

And I’m just so done with thinking about him. He doesn’t interest me, and I feel a bit trapped in a system that is powered by him.

Just out of curiosity, what at the parts that you think were not made up?

moksha wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:02 pm Just out of curiosity, what at the parts that you think were not made up?

For instance, I can believe that he had a powerful experience in a grove of trees when saw/sensed a deity, and then was filled with relief and love when his sins were forgiven. But that’s about it - not the rest of the account, not the other accounts.

moksha wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:02 pm Just out of curiosity, what at the parts that you think were not made up?

What if it turned out that Zelph is the only thing that is true.

Or the angel with the sword. Yeah, I like that. He lied about seeing Elohim, Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Moroni, et. al. but he really did see an angel with a sword that commanded him to marry teenagers. I'm going to tuck that in my back pocket for when someone asks, "Don't you believe ANY of it?"

For those who cannot get enough of Book of Mormon stuff, here is an interesting thread by a poster named Shulem that addresses an interesting relationship between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=857

moksha wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 6:43 pm For those who cannot get enough of Book of Mormon stuff, here is an interesting thread by a poster named Shulem that addresses an interesting relationship between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=857

Very interesting. I was pretty knocked over by the New Testament parallels to the Abinidi-Noah-Alma story. I hope I wasn't breaking protocol by asking a question; my first time posting there.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:30 am

moksha wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 6:43 pm For those who cannot get enough of Book of Mormon stuff, here is an interesting thread by a poster named Shulem that addresses an interesting relationship between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=857

Very interesting. I was pretty knocked over by the New Testament parallels to the Abinidi-Noah-Alma story. I hope I wasn't breaking protocol by asking a question; my first time posting there.

Shulem will appreciate your question.

moksha wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:33 am Shulem will appreciate your question.

The parallels he found in the Abinidi/Noah/Alma story really made me do this: