NOM

John Dehlin is sharing on social media that one of his insider sources says there is "major discord among 12 right now on current issues" and "tithing receipts are way down".

Any validity to this? What do you think? If true, what changes, if any, will this drive?

TLDR; inside source says “Mother’s lounge” smells like dirty diapers.

I think the collective exmormon community has been saying this since 1830.

I also think the loudest voices in the collective exmormon community have had an “inside source” since 1830.

I also think that the statement is so vague and bland of any details that it’s another blank data point in an environment where relevancy is determined by statements backed up with no evidence.

Remember when the inside source said that coffee was going to be allowed?

Remember when the inside source said that garments were going to go away outside the temple?

I also think that nothing will change. The brethren will defer to the broken pattern of uniting in the name of Jesus while worshipping themselves. Follow the prophet.

I also think I think too much about this silly stuff.

I want to believe that tithing receipts are down because formerly orthodox people are becoming less orthodox and recognizing that the church doesn't need their money or their attendance. And that the scales are tipping to have more people like us. But it sounds too good to be true. And there have been no changes among my TBM friends and family, so I'm taking this with a kosher grain of salt.

If it is true I expect more strictness in the short term over the next couple years because the current leadership seem that way. More damnation if you don't do what we say, more focus on what sinning/leaving will cost those who leave, more pushy about temple worthiness/attendance, local units pushed to spend even less money. One of these seems to have already happened when the Bishopric Secretary started texting me out of the blue to come in for a temple recommend interview.

That will drive lots of people out, leaving a more conservative core who believe that they are the wheat left after the chaff is sifted out. It's gonna be a terrible place to get spiritually fed...

I also saw someone claim temple attendance was worrisome along with the discord between the Q15.

I’ll post some anecdotal evidence that temple attendance is down. In laws are current temple workers. They have stated that the temple was busy for a few weeks after it reopened post COVID. Now it’s a ghost town with many of the shifts using the workers themselves as attendees to do endowments.

Good thing they're building a hundred more temples. With the supply way up and the demand low the cost of attendance is sure to get cheaper.

That's a joke, but seriously... if temple attendance is way down leaders may have to consider relaxing all the purity and loyalty tests that are required to enter. It may already be too late for that to make a difference.

And yes, wishful exmo thinking is wishful exmo thinking.

I always take these things with a grain of salt. The source may very well work for the church, but even then you don't know exactly what it means.

The bits I saw were that the "disarray" is over social issues and the secondary source mentioned that temple attendance is so low that the temple dept doesn't know what to do especially given that Nelson is putting them in a horrible spot by announcing a gazillion temples before he dies.

But until you see something more solid, I wouldn't put much into it and I certainly wouldn't run with it.

Let’s discuss what temple workers actually do?

Sit and observe?
Pass out handshakes?
Lead the sessions?

Seriously, I think they could just automate the process so that temple workers aren’t even needed. Perhaps two at best.

Make it coin operated like the old peep theaters!

nibbler wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:55 pm if temple attendance is way down leaders may have to consider relaxing all the purity and loyalty tests that are required to enter.

The problem there is that you lose the incentive to go to the temple because you are one of the elite who have sacrificed for the privilege. It would be great if the temple was actually an enjoyable, fulfilling experience, but if everyone could attend the word would quickly get out about how lame it really is.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:11 pm Seriously, I think they could just automate the process so that temple workers aren’t even needed.

Or have the prophet go in there once a year, hold up a big bag of names like they do in the True Order of Prayer™ and just do it for everyone.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:21 pm The problem there is that you lose the incentive to go to the temple because you are one of the elite who have sacrificed for the privilege. It would be great if the temple was actually an enjoyable, fulfilling experience, but if everyone could attend the word would quickly get out about how lame it really is.

There is that, isn't there. Exclusive access is a part of what makes it special.

I do wonder how leaders could address declining temple attendance.

Hammering the topic during general conference? Produce a new catchphrase or slogan to get people excited about the temple. Then, just like hasten the work and covenant path, repeat that catchphrase so often it drives members insane?

Something like:


I'm sure there will be the typical guilting and shaming to get people to attend. "The Lord has blessed us with a temple in our midst and the temple is empty on some days. Brethren. We have to do more!" I find that approach doesn't have any long term impact.

So I'm left with leaders trying to "simplify" the temple recommend interview such that more people can qualify.

I don't think that would help either. I think we need to fundamentally change the temple experience. Personally, I don't have much interest in doing endowment sessions. Hammering the "need" of the endowment ain't gonna cut it. Qualified or unqualified, the interest still isn't there.

If the appealing part of the temple for someone is a place to meditate they're not going to find much utility in the temple. You sit through two hours of session to accomplish what could be accomplished in five minutes just to spend 90 seconds pondering in the celestial room before you feel pressure to leave or you realize it's been several hours already and you get the itch to leave.

The temple experience is too rigid, too assembly line. A reflection of the overall church experience in that regard.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:01 pm I always take these things with a grain of salt. The source may very well work for the church, but even then you don't know exactly what it means.

The bits I saw were that the "disarray" is over social issues and the secondary source mentioned that temple attendance is so low that the temple dept doesn't know what to do especially given that Nelson is putting them in a horrible spot by announcing a gazillion temples before he dies.

But until you see something more solid, I wouldn't put much into it and I certainly wouldn't run with it.

Agreed. John Dehlin is in a position where he hears things, true. But this could be third or fourth hand. I am sure the Church Office Building has rumors circulate from time to time, this may just be one of them.

And besides, I kind of have mixed feelings about John Dehlin. He has brought things to light in the past, he has used his platform to highlight a lot of issues that needed to be brought out in the open, he has helped a lot of people through their reality transition. He also seems to have a high need for attention, he is prone to hyperbole a bit, and his comments are generally the least interesting thing about any Mormon Stories episode.

stealthbishop wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:09 pm John Dehlin is sharing on social media that one of his insider sources says there is "major discord among 12 right now on current issues" and "tithing receipts are way down".

Any validity to this? What do you think? If true, what changes, if any, will this drive?

This is so vague as to be meaningless.

The Q15 fighting? What else is new. Just read the stores about all the fighting and backstabbing with removing the Priesthood ban on black members.

Tithing being way down, what does that mean? It can be a simple matter of perspective.

Lets take purely hypothetical situation. Let's say that tithing revenue is down $100 Million. That is a huge number. Most large businesses, that would potentially be catastrophic. However to LDSinc, that is a drop in the bucket. 100M is only 1.4% of the 7+ billion that they take in each year in tithing. Not to mention their other sources of income. Tithing could be "way down" to most people, but not affect the church in any meaningful way.

Hell, from what we know about Ensign Peak Investments, the church does not need tithing at all. The could live for ever on the interest each year from their "rainy day fund." Tithing only affects how fast their fund grows. They don't actually rely on it at all. Loss of tithing funds will have no impact on their operations at all.

nibbler wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:44 am
I do wonder how leaders could address declining temple attendance.

Hammering the topic during general conference? Produce a new catchphrase or slogan to get people excited about the temple. Then, just like hasten the work and covenant path, repeat that catchphrase so often it drives members insane?

They could take one simple trick from their playbook:

Special temple sessions. Similar to special stake conferences where every member is especially excited and nothing special happens!

Special temple sessions are held every Tuesday and Thursday night at 7:00PM.

I saw this on Twitter. I wouldn't put much into it. It's gossip and speculation, which is fine as long people realize there is nothing factual about it (unless you don't believe in facts, which I hear is a thing).

The church is probably rich enough to get by. Aren't they supposed to stop charging 10% when the storehouses are full? Haven't they met that quota? Was it Lorenzo Snow who said that? Wasn't he a prophet back in the day that prophets spoke face to face with Jesus? Maybe the boys will have to shave down on company perks. See? Lots of speculation and a bit of sarcasm.

This is anecdotal, but tithing has not significantly changed in our non-Utah ward. Removing actual numbers here is a chart of the last 4 years...

The 2022 number is a projection based on the past 6 months.



edit: Interesting to note that probably 85-90% of the total tithing payment is from 5% of the families in the ward.

nibbler wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:44 am Produce a new catchphrase or slogan to get people excited about the temple.

Maybe in the dining area they could have an open bar. Name drinks after the various degrees of glory.

stealthbishop wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:09 pm John Dehlin is sharing on social media that one of his insider sources says there is "major discord among 12 right now on current issues" and "tithing receipts are way down".

I don't have any confidence in the rumor, but I consider both of these to be likely true. I suspect tithing receipts are noticeably down. The Church hasn't been faring well in the U.S. or Western Europe, where the money has come from. It's growth comes in areas that don't provide much money. I suspect that's been the case for a long time, but it's accelerated along with the Church's decline in membership number growth.

The 15 like to present a united front, but we now from history that isn't the way things really happen. Discord is much more common than they'd like us to think. Given the state of the U.S.A. and Utah, I suspect it is indeed higher now than usual.

And, there are a lot of reasons to believe that temple attendance is dramatically down. We're still in a pandemic / endemic situation. Temple attendance tracks a number of the other indicators. And the experience just isn't as relevant these days.

hmb wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:04 am

nibbler wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:44 am Produce a new catchphrase or slogan to get people excited about the temple.

Maybe in the dining area they could have an open bar. Name drinks after the various degrees of glory.

They just need to start serving "TK smoothies" and laugh at the poor heathens who won't have naughty bits in the afterlife.

Has anyone heard if GA's have to sign an NDA when they are called? This thread made me wonder if there were a real punishment if they started talking trash about each other or are they just protecting their own positions by giving a face of unanimity.

I am sure that there are disagreements among the upper leadership. RMN himself is reported to have said that if we could see a meeting of the apostles we would understand how there could be a war in heaven. I'm doubt that the disagreements now are much bigger than what they were in the past, though.

blazerb wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:50 am Has anyone heard if GA's have to sign an NDA when they are called? This thread made me wonder if there were a real punishment if they started talking trash about each other or are they just protecting their own positions by giving a face of unanimity.

I am sure that there are disagreements among the upper leadership. RMN himself is reported to have said that if we could see a meeting of the apostles we would understand how there could be a war in heaven. I'm doubt that the disagreements now are much bigger than what they were in the past, though.

I think the leadership vetting process drastically reduces the risk of a disaffection at the Q15 level so we will never see that happen in the modern era. Uchtdorf is probably the closest we’ve seen where he “steps out of character” by being like-able and slightly progressive. We saw how that turned out when he was removed from the 1FP.

In regards to seeing a meeting of the apostles… we have!
Remember the leaked videos of pre Q12 Elder Gong teaching the apostles about worldly events? It was like watching a kindergarten class asking rapid fire questions that ended with Oaks asking if Julianne Assange was a confirmed homosexual.

If anything, watching the LDS leadership in action is nothing more than self congratulatory flagellation/flatulence.

Ironically, watching a lot of the exmo crowd is also nothing more than self congratulatory flagellation/flatulence!