Ayaan Hirsi Ali Joins Christianity

[Ghost]

Just came across this article that I found interesting:

https://unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-now-a-christian/

Ayaan Hirsi Ali left Islam years ago to become an outspoken atheist, but has now embraced Christianity. I don't know much about Ali outside of a Sam Harris interview I listened to a while back, but this is something I think about occasionally. Does civilization need religion? I suspect it ultimately might, whatever my feelings about the truth claims. But for Ali, it isn't only about saving society.

Yet I would not be truthful if I attributed my embrace of Christianity solely to the realisation that atheism is too weak and divisive a doctrine to fortify us against our menacing foes. I have also turned to Christianity because I ultimately found life without any spiritual solace unendurable — indeed very nearly self-destructive. Atheism failed to answer a simple question: what is the meaning and purpose of life?

This is another thing I still think about sometimes. Does life eventually become "unendurable" for the individual without something that you might call "spirituality?" There seem to be examples of people with no belief in anything supernatural living meaningful lives that would suggest that such belief is not a basic need. Or are they subconsciously replacing religion with something else that's no more "valid" in the end? Or just not thinking about the big questions too much to stave off existential dread?

I think I mentioned this at NOM before, but I once had a coworker who had been in school to become a preacher but lost his faith during his studies. Discovering my coworker's story was ideal for me because I was at the height of my questioning phase and we met up outside of work periodically to talk about our respective journeys. One of the things I asked him was, after discovering that deconstruction can go much deeper than Christianity if you let it, how he avoided slipping into nihilism or despair. This was something I saw as a possible end result. He told me that he had to stop himself at some point to function, and I appreciated his candor in saying that.

[blazerb]

I saw her article. I am curious how others handle it. I have people close to me who left Mormonism and joined mainstream Christianity. Others seem to function well without organized religion. I feel fine without going to church, at least right now. I have hopes about some sort of cosmic purpose, but I don't see how anyone could have more insight into it than another. Zoroastrianism seems as equipped to explain the world as Christianity. Right now, I feel like I would need some way of figuring out what is true. That is my Mormon DNA expressing itself, I'm sure.

That could change in the future. Maybe the fellowship of others would be enough to make a church worthwhile. Right now, it seems like too much commitment, and I don't trust myself not to get caught up in something bad. I hope Ms. Ali finds peace.

[Hagoth]

This is another thing I still think about sometimes. Does life eventually become "unendurable" for the individual without something that you might call "spirituality?"

I am a big believer in spirituality as something that doesn't have to be a subset of religion. In fact, I think religion often does us damage when it claims ownership of something that comes as standard equipment. You can prove the existence of a spiritual brain state with neuroimaging, but you cannot prove religious claims empirically.

That said, the idea of a universal religion that uplifts and serves everyone is very appealing. The problem is that we will have to abandon all current religions and mutually decide on a new start. I would like to see a proposal that would get Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus (plus many, many more) all on the same page. Maybe John Lennon could have imagined something like that, but I find it challenging.

[Linked]

Intellectually I like the idea of Absurdism as an answer for how to deal with the need for meaning in life. Absurdism is named after the absurd position humans often find themselves in, realizing that there is no meaning or purpose in life but also needing a meaning and purpose in their own life. You embrace the absurdity of the situation and accept the lack of objective meaning, then also accept your need for meaning and let your subjective meaning and purpose fill the need. For me, the subjective meaning and purpose has been less satisfying than when I had objective meaning and purpose as a believer. It's like drinking diet soda after drinking sugary soda. Maybe the end state is that it's unendurable, I guess we will see!

My son is working on his physical fitness merit badge for scouts and one of the requirements is to explain what it means to be spiritually fit. It's an interesting question for a kid with one TBM parent and one agnostic parent. What does it mean to be spiritually fit? How is it any different than mental health? What is spirituality?

Some things that fit the bill of spirituality are Gratitude, Hope, Wonder, Purpose, Values, and Beliefs. Religions often provide these things. Mormonism definitely does. Mormon prayers are a form of meditation that guides one to a state of gratitude and hope; we thank thee, we ask thee. There is plenty of wonder taught in the church, for things like God's love and nature, though they force the wonder in some areas and deny the wonder of others. Mormonism provides bucket loads of purpose, values, and beliefs.

[Ghost]

Maybe John Lennon could have imagined something like that, but I find it challenging.

I guess it depends on whether you see those traditions and their differences as a cause of tribalism and conflict, or just one way people express their natural inclinations. (I've always found that song kind of annoying in its facile sentiment, personally.)

While many people call themselves "spiritual but not religious" I gradually found myself instead becoming "religious but not spiritual," going through the motions to some degree for a combination of reasons but finding the core hollow (or at least inaccessible to me if there was something there). I guess I'm kind of neither now, for better or for worse.

After reading that article, I tried to think of what would drive me to participate actively in a religion again, or even seek out some other form of "spirituality." Maybe it's just too soon, but that's hard for me to imagine. I could see pretending for the community aspect, as I guess I kind of still do in a way, but that's not quite the same thing as internalizing some part of it.

[nibbler]

Yet I would not be truthful if I attributed my embrace of Christianity solely to the realisation that atheism is too weak and divisive a doctrine to fortify us against our menacing foes.

People worried about "menacing foes" probably do need religion... or are unable to completely divorce themselves from it. At least from Abrahamic religions.

That's where I need someone to spot me one. Who are these menacing foes? Are the menacing foes in the room with us right now?

[alas]

Yet I would not be truthful if I attributed my embrace of Christianity solely to the realisation that atheism is too weak and divisive a doctrine to fortify us against our menacing foes.

People worried about "menacing foes" probably do need religion... or are unable to completely divorce themselves from it. At least from Abrahamic religions.

That's where I need someone to spot me one. Who are these menacing foes? Are the menacing foes in the room with us right now?

I have always been kind of skeptical about “menacing foes” from a religious standpoint like how she is talking. I just don’t believe in the religious version of Satan.

I believe “we have met the enemy and he is us,” is more likely true. I see as many menacing foes in religion as I do out of it. Menacing foes… like greed, like desire for power, like arrogance, like cruelty, …yeah, we have met the menacing foe in the mirror. Or sitting next to us. Or running for political office, or selling us TV subscriptions, or teaching our children, or refusing to allow children to learn.

So, do we need religion to fight the menacing foe? I suppose some people do. They need to be scared into better behavior, or they need to think some higher power will help them resist alcohol. They need something stronger, bigger, and better than themselves they believe will help them and reward them. Or hope will unite them.

I guess that I found that when it came to things like controlling “temptations” that if I couldn’t do it, nobody or nothing was going to help. I have seen lack of any reward in this life, except the consequences of your own behavior. Treat people nice, and they tend to be nice to you in return. Betray their trust, and they never want to be close enough to you to get hurt again. My brother’s alcoholism, well he didn’t like “God” and so he had trouble selecting a higher power. He really tried “God” as a higher power and it was a total failure. He finally picked “nature” and selected a nice strong tree and a pretty spot to meditate. The was much better, because the meditation strengthened *him* so he could do it himself. But funny, what really helped was the invention of the right medication to stop his hallucinations as well as alcohol did.

But when I have needed help from the “menacing foe” sitting next to me, there was no help and no protection, except what I came up with. And when has religion protected us from greedy people who sell religion, or demand tithing before we feed our kids?

And as far as “I have met the enemy and she is me,” according to Mormonism part of the experience of life is that struggle with the menacing foe inside myself, my own cruelty, greed, arrogance. So, if God helps, like a sweet dad helping with our homework, do we learn and grow and get stronger as well as if we are left to do our own homework?

So, sorry, but I just don’t see how religion helps me with any menacing foe. It never helped with that guy sitting next to me and I shouldn’t use it as a crutch because the way to grow stronger is to do my own exercising and do the work, even when it is hard. Maybe I outgrew it as a crutch, or don’t trust it as a crutch.

[Hagoth]

Who are these menacing foes?

One man's menacing foe is another man's mouthpiece of God.

So, sorry, but I just don’t see how religion helps me with any menacing foe.

Particularly when most menacing foes are either invisible entities or distortions/dehumanization of real people created by the organization you look to for truth and meaning.

Some theologians have been able to look at others' belief systems and see the commonality rather than the otherness, but that is rare. I think if we want a spiritual tradition that could work universally we would need to turn back the calendar 6000 years or so and strip off all of the dogma, gods, demons, and ghosts that people have piled onto spirituality since then. There is a common stream flowing underneath all religions that can still be seen in Buddhism, Daoism, Native American religion, Hinduism, Celtic Mysticism and others. Less so in the Abrahamic traditions. I think if you could scrape off all of the bells, whistles, bobbles, and entities that people have attached, like riders on a senate bill, over the centuries, you might find a surprisingly robust and useful well of spirituality. Once people realized religious authority=power it could never be pure again.

[dogbite]

Does civilization need religion? I suspect it ultimately might, whatever my feelings about the truth claims.

I don't think civilization itself needs religion. Elements with the civilizations likely do.

There are certainly atheists who feel that they need a social structure to replace religion for the social and communal aspects. Humans are diverse in how they prefer to interact within the civilization. For me the problem arises when one group of particular interactors starts telling a different group your preferred interactions are inadequate, wrong, immoral...

[deacon blues]

I agree that there are some people that need religion, but it's not for everybody.
Personally I see the quest for knowledge as giving meaning to life. Also Love as a principle of action can give meaning to life, apart from religion.
Oddly and/or sadly some people can't seem to see love or charity except as a part of their religion. In many cases that's because religions bind themselves to Charity, and teach their young to view view it as "Our religion=Charity.
I remember our mission president saying who are peacemakers? You elders are peacemakers because you are spreading the gospel of peace. He used semantics to obscure reality, and as apologetics. That's one way religions go off the rails.

[moksha]

That is my Mormon DNA expressing itself, I'm sure.

Makes us want to place our trust in Congressman George Santos.

[blazerb]

That is my Mormon DNA expressing itself, I'm sure.

Makes us want to place our trust in Congressman George Santos.

Santos gave carefully worded explanations of his birth, college, work history, sports ability, etc. Give Brother George a break.