Setting & maintaining a temple boundary

[Conman52]

Hi Gang : Would like some input on setting boundaries about Not attending the Temple !! So here is my story joined the church with my wife at age 21 very active struggled financially for years raising a family. Joined the Army in 1982 for a steady job stayed 10 years got out worked in law enforcement another 20 years still active in the church many different callings even 1st counselor in the bishopric. Learned the real history of the church in 2014= Faith Crisis. Struggled/ left the church 2017 upon my wife begging me I was rebaptized in 2019. All this time she stayed a TBM . Sealed in the Temple 1984 found it very very disturbing. Did not go back for a dozen years. She is now pushing to attend the Temple regularly and I don't want too. I find it to cultish weird & disturbing. I'm wanting to set a firm boundary to not go. She gets all upset threatens divorce etc . *** We also have a grandaughter 2/3 done with her mission as I write this. I am going to stick with my hard boundary. Is it going to be worth a divorce if it comes to that ????? Thanks.

[moksha]

Is it going to be worth a divorce if it comes to that ????? Thanks.

It might be worth doing cult stretching exercises to limber up, but first, have a good conversation asking how you can best be supportive without discomfort. Best wishes.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Hi Gang : Would like some input on setting boundaries about Not attending the Temple !! So here is my story joined the church with my wife at age 21 very active struggled financially for years raising a family. Joined the Army in 1982 for a steady job stayed 10 years got out worked in law enforcement another 20 years still active in the church many different callings even 1st counselor in the bishopric. Learned the real history of the church in 2014= Faith Crisis. Struggled/ left the church 2017 upon my wife begging me I was rebaptized in 2019. All this time she stayed a TBM . Sealed in the Temple 1984 found it very very disturbing. Did not go back for a dozen years. She is now pushing to attend the Temple regularly and I don't want too. I find it to cultish weird & disturbing. I'm wanting to set a firm boundary to not go. She gets all upset threatens divorce etc . *** We also have a grandaughter 2/3 done with her mission as I write this. I am going to stick with my hard boundary. Is it going to be worth a divorce if it comes to that ????? Thanks.

Meh. Not worth a divorce. The Utah Jazz suck and it would be a waste of time to go watch them, but it would be a small sacrifice to keep a marriage together. Same for watching a temple movie.

Its just a ritual. Its whatever.

A marriage with lies is a bigger and more real issue.

[Hagoth]

Man, this is such a tough situation because everyone is different. Some spouses don't care so much what you believe, they just want to maintain a semblance of what the church tells them is a healthy marriage. I honestly think the church wants our spouses to feel like we have betrayed and abandoned them and our families by not attending the temple. It gives them power over you in your family.

I tend to agree with ME. If it's all make believe anyway, you have just as much right to play make believe on your terms as they do.

I continued to attend occasionally after I no longer believed. I encouraged my wife to go with friends, but I would go along now and then just because I didn't want her to fall prey to church mythology about unworthiness of people who don't believe in angels with gold plates. Over time I was able to help her understand the reasons I couldn't go along with the tap dance. Years later I was finally able to have a genuine conversation with her and even read from Duncan's Ritual to demonstrate the degree to which the endowment was plagiarized from the Masons.

It was not so much about the occasional handshaking and apron wearing for me as it was about getting a recommend. I reached a point where I just couldn't answer the questions the way they wanted. For a while they pushed me through and gave me a recommend anyway, but when my bishop > SP friend moved on I no longer had a free pass. But by then I was doing unspeakably evil acts of rebellion like drinking coffee, anyway.

So, if you can, and are willing to get a recommend, maybe you can reach a compromise about making the fewest temple visits necessary to satisfy both of you.

The truth is though, if you don't believe Russell M. Nelson is a prophet of Godalmighty, and LDS Corp is the true restoration of Christs church, you will have to lie to get a recommend. You might have that discussion with your wife. Does she really want you to lie to get in the House O' God? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? At first my wife thought it was worth it even if I had to stretch the truth, but then she realized my integrity meant more to me than a handshake through a curtain.

BUT, on the other hand, Russell M. Nelson isn't temple worthy either. He is a demonstrable liar and has been caught committing SEC and IRS fraud on a massive level. But I'm sure they don't make Wendy attend by herself. If someone that immoral can go to the temple, then you certainly can.

[Red Ryder]

My motto was to ”Love my wife more than I hated going to the temple.”

Then it morphed into “I loved my bank account more than I hated going to the temple.”

Then it changed again to “I really loved not going to the temple because the temple rituals were really silly.”

That led to “I’m sorry you’re going by yourself… I recognize that it really hurts you to be there without me.”

Which led to her saying “I know it bothers you and you can’t stand it. I’ll be fine, but I hate to go alone with my family and you’re not there.”

Which led to “I can still meet you all at the Olive Garden after!”

Which was clarified with “No, you know my mom and dad will only pay for you if you attend the temple!”

Which then would cause me to chuckle and say “you know I can afford bread sticks, salad, and chicken parmigiana, right?”

Which then led to loud laughter and “I’m sorry. I love you too!”

This cycle repeated in various forms for over 17 years. Often with more tears, better restaurant choices, loud laughter, and always ending with love.

Then one day I heard “ I don’t think the church is what it claims to be!”

Which led to “why do you think that?”

Which led to many amazing wonderful conversations and hours of just listening. Never pushing, never persuading, never manipulating. Just listening, understanding, validating, and loving.

Which led to “hey this is Mom, we thought we would go do a Saturday late afternoon temple session and then head over to the Olive Garden. Your dad is craving bread sticks, salad, and Chicken fettuccine!”

Which led to “Sorry mom, I have plans with RR on Saturday night. He’s taking me out to ________!”

Which led to a loving glance, a huge smile, and quickly made plans to go out on Saturday night.

Which continues to lead to a healthy loving relationship that gets better by the week. Void of fear of an eternal separation caused by the lack of attendance at the Lords house.

Choose love. It always wins in the end.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Hagoth's and RR's posts are true. So true.

I would never recommend 17 years of inauthentic living or rationalization. I also do not recommend tossing away a great relationship over something as jackassed as dressing up, shaking hands, and repeating some lines. I do recommend, however, loud laughter and evil speaking of the Lord's CEO's and Board of Directors - and that, is how you bridge the gap. At some point, you have to just surrender to just how damn silly it all is, and take what works and laugh at the rest.

I really love my family's wild frontier heritage and I love that they built things in the West. Now, that whole sex cult part could have been handled a lot better, but more than a century removed from it all, I laugh at that too. Take some, leave some, laugh out loud.

[dogbite]

You have to weigh it out for yourself and your relationship.

I Had been openly non-temple attender while active and holding a recommend. I told the interviewers I found it weird. And they had no answer except to encourage me to attend. I had told my wife this as well.

One time she said she wanted to go the temple. I said I hope you enjoy it. She replied I want to go together. I asked what part of the experience did we do together? She settled on the celestial room. And I said they don't let you stay there and whisper together. The together parts don't happen in the temple.

And she herself hasn't gone except one or two more times and has let her recommend lapse. Our kids aren't active and won't be doing anything in the temple that we would be invited to. So it has become a non-issue.

Openly disliking the temple is not really a problem in the church. Try it out.

[Conman52]

Hagoth you make a lot of sense . Yes it is all made up and I knew that already but to see you post that helps me reaffirm that idea. Funny what someone else writes just makes it make more sense. I love the fact that Russell M. Nelson is not worthy to attend the temple either because of his massive fraud cover up !!! But as you said I'm sure Wendy doesn't go alone . Thank you.

[Cnsl1]

On the Stay LDS forum there is some thread about nuancing the temple rec questions so that you're not lying but also getting the questions right enough to get the golden ticket. I can't remember all the ideas, but I do remember thinking of a lot of that on my own whilst I was in faith crisis but still wanted/ needed to have that ticket. Now I don't care, my wife doesn't care, and all my kids are out so I don't imagine I'll have any familial need to attend a polygamy palace ever again. A few years back we had a caring bishop ask my wife and I how he cod help us get back to the temple. I said, oh, we could get a recommend now and go, but we just don't feel a pressing desire. I basically don't want to go. It's not like there's a sin keeping me from it.

To be honest, I wouldn't exactly be following the WofW like most Mormons would think I should, but I've answered that question affirmatively before and could again. Yes, I obey MY standard of health, or the word of wisdom as revealed and translated correctly to me and my wife.

Tithing? Oh f@#$ no. We give to those in need as often as we can. I've refused to give the church one more dime.

Do I sustain Nelson as the prophet? He's the guy in that role. He's the leader of the church. Based on that definition, sure. Do I sustain him? I'm not actively working to have him displaced so.. i guess that could mean i sustain him.

I used to have the questions memorized back when I used to give the interviews. I will never forget the time I interviewed a young man who had been denied progress in the Aaronic Priesthood because he confessed to the bishop that he masturbated. I knew this because the bishop and the young man's father had told me. So when it came time to go on a youth temple trip and the young man didn't show up for his interview, I went to his house. I asked him, do you want to go with us to the temple. He said yes, very much so. Ok then you need a recommend. I started in with the questions. He seemed really nervous when we got to the law of chastity question. I asked it then immediately asked him if he knew what that means. He stammered and said I guess so, but then I said it means you don't have sex with anyone outside of your marriage. Then I asked if he was having sex with anyone else outside of marriage and he said, well.. no. Then I said, so you're good. We finished the interview, he went on the temple trip and had a good time with his peers.

For crying out loud. Why the hell do we make kids feel so terrible and shameful about themselves over a very normal process of sexual development. Nearly everyone of them are masturbating, but only the honest ones are confessing and thinking they're the only ones with this "problem ". It's ridiculous.

I wish I could say that the kid then quickly advanced in the preisthood but of course the bishop was a little more hard nosed. I told the bishop I'd never ask kids specifically about masturbation. It's not in the questions. Why does he even do it? I was told by a close family member and friend who was a bishop that the words "ask about masturbation " was penciled in the column in their handbook of instructions. It wasn't printed, I know that. But some dumbass bishop or stake pres decided that they still needed to go there. I've no idea if they still ask about masturbation but I'm assuming it's a leader roulette sort of situation. Just depends on who you have leading the flock.

[Gatorbait]

Hi Gang : Would like some input on setting boundaries about Not attending the Temple !! So here is my story joined the church with my wife at age 21 very active struggled financially for years raising a family. Joined the Army in 1982 for a steady job stayed 10 years got out worked in law enforcement another 20 years still active in the church many different callings even 1st counselor in the bishopric. Learned the real history of the church in 2014= Faith Crisis. Struggled/ left the church 2017 upon my wife begging me I was rebaptized in 2019. All this time she stayed a TBM . Sealed in the Temple 1984 found it very very disturbing. Did not go back for a dozen years. She is now pushing to attend the Temple regularly and I don't want too. I find it to cultish weird & disturbing. I'm wanting to set a firm boundary to not go. She gets all upset threatens divorce etc . *** We also have a grandaughter 2/3 done with her mission as I write this. I am going to stick with my hard boundary. Is it going to be worth a divorce if it comes to that ????? Thanks.

Meh. Not worth a divorce. The Utah Jazz suck and it would be a waste of time to go watch them, but it would be a small sacrifice to keep a marriage together. Same for watching a temple movie.

Its just a ritual. Its whatever.

A marriage with lies is a bigger and more real issue.

Could not agree more with ME and Moksha- nothing in any church is worth a divorce if you love your spouse. If it were not for love, there is no purpose to any of this stuff in any case. No purpose to life.

[Gatorbait]

On the Stay LDS forum there is some thread about nuancing the temple rec questions so that you're not lying but also getting the questions right enough to get the golden ticket. I can't remember all the ideas, but I do remember thinking of a lot of that on my own whilst I was in faith crisis but still wanted/ needed to have that ticket. Now I don't care, my wife doesn't care, and all my kids are out so I don't imagine I'll have any familial need to attend a polygamy palace ever again. A few years back we had a caring bishop ask my wife and I how he cod help us get back to the temple. I said, oh, we could get a recommend now and go, but we just don't feel a pressing desire. I basically don't want to go. It's not like there's a sin keeping me from it.

To be honest, I wouldn't exactly be following the WofW like most Mormons would think I should, but I've answered that question affirmatively before and could again. Yes, I obey MY standard of health, or the word of wisdom as revealed and translated correctly to me and my wife.

Tithing? Oh f@#$ no. We give to those in need as often as we can. I've refused to give the church one more dime.

Do I sustain Nelson as the prophet? He's the guy in that role. He's the leader of the church. Based on that definition, sure. Do I sustain him? I'm not actively working to have him displaced so.. i guess that could mean i sustain him.

I used to have the questions memorized back when I used to give the interviews. I will never forget the time I interviewed a young man who had been denied progress in the Aaronic Priesthood because he confessed to the bishop that he masturbated. I knew this because the bishop and the young man's father had told me. So when it came time to go on a youth temple trip and the young man didn't show up for his interview, I went to his house. I asked him, do you want to go with us to the temple. He said yes, very much so. Ok then you need a recommend. I started in with the questions. He seemed really nervous when we got to the law of chastity question. I asked it then immediately asked him if he knew what that means. He stammered and said I guess so, but then I said it means you don't have sex with anyone outside of your marriage. Then I asked if he was having sex with anyone else outside of marriage and he said, well.. no. Then I said, so you're good. We finished the interview, he went on the temple trip and had a good time with his peers.

For crying out loud. Why the hell do we make kids feel so terrible and shameful about themselves over a very normal process of sexual development. Nearly everyone of them are masturbating, but only the honest ones are confessing and thinking they're the only ones with this "problem ". It's ridiculous.

I wish I could say that the kid then quickly advanced in the preisthood but of course the bishop was a little more hard nosed. I told the bishop I'd never ask kids specifically about masturbation. It's not in the questions. Why does he even do it? I was told by a close family member and friend who was a bishop that the words "ask about masturbation " was penciled in the column in their handbook of instructions. It wasn't printed, I know that. But some dumbass bishop or stake pres decided that they still needed to go there. I've no idea if they still ask about masturbation but I'm assuming it's a leader roulette sort of situation. Just depends on who you have leading the flock.

Excellent points made here and I concur completely. Nothing worse than a nosy bishop asking personal questions that are not on the stupid list to begin with. So exclusive. You did the right thing with the young man and I commend you for it. Also, telling the bishop to stick to the questions was wise as well. Good post noble one.

[Hagoth]

On the Stay LDS forum there is some thread about nuancing the temple rec questions so that you're not lying but also getting the questions right enough to get the golden ticket.

Here's what my bishop-who-became-my-stake-president told me to do:

"When I ask 'do you have faith in, and a testimony of.' you just replace those words in your mind with, 'could you hope for."

Sure, I could hope for a true, restored church with a real prophet. So that got me through a couple of recommend renewals. Then I realized I don't even hope for this church to be true. If it's true, then God is a dick. I could hope for this stuff to be true, but I can just as easily hope for something better to be true, and all of those questions go back to having "no" answers.

[RubinHighlander]

Joined the Army in 1982...

I joined the army in 1981 - Ft Sill OK, Artillery; did 20 years in the reserves and guard.

Sounds like you've already hit the wall many times over this topic. Lots of good advice here so I don't have much to add.

If you did tell her you will compromise and go with her once in a while, perhaps you could negotiate something in return. Maybe she could invest some of her time to read some historical docs on the history of the temple ceremonies and masons and such? Nothing heavy, but maybe there's opportunity here? Or, maybe you negotiate something else that could help your future, like getting her to take a Sunday off each month to go out into nature and relax. The more Sundays I got my DW to take off and go on short outdoor adventures, the more she liked that instead of church. It wasn't long before she was suggesting to take more Sundays off to do fun things. Not going to church also helped her feel a lot less stressed going to work on Monday. It also showed her how much more spiritually fulfilling it was to be outside with me rather than slog that 3 hours at church; it provided a cushion for her own faith crisis when it hit.

Good luck!

[Conman52]

Hey Rubinhighlander: That's funny because as I said I joined the Army in 1982 Fort Sill and artillery also. I retired after 10 years active & 10 in the National Guard !! Thanks for the suggestion about taking a Sunday off for something fun !!

[Just This Guy]

I wish I could say that the kid then quickly advanced in the preisthood but of course the bishop was a little more hard nosed. I told the bishop I'd never ask kids specifically about masturbation. It's not in the questions. Why does he even do it? I was told by a close family member and friend who was a bishop that the words "ask about masturbation " was penciled in the column in their handbook of instructions. It wasn't printed, I know that. But some dumbass bishop or stake pres decided that they still needed to go there. I've no idea if they still ask about masturbation but I'm assuming it's a leader roulette sort of situation. Just depends on who you have leading the flock.

Wasn't there something a few years ago where leaders were instructed to just stick to the questions as as they are printed on the form and they were not supposed to ask followup up questions or change the questions?

I do wonder how often today various bishops and stake leaders feel the need to dig into recommend answers or to ask their own questions.

[Hagoth]

I do wonder how often today various bishops and stake leaders feel the need to dig into recommend answers or to ask their own questions.

This was a long time ago, but I had a friend who was engaged to get married in the temple, but the SP said he would not grant his fiancé a recommend unless they both swore a sacred oath that they would never have oral sex. Apparently they caved because they did get married. I always thought of it as a case of misery loves company.

[Cnsl1]

I do wonder how often today various bishops and stake leaders feel the need to dig into recommend answers or to ask their own questions.

This was a long time ago, but I had a friend who was engaged to get married in the temple, but the SP said he would not grant his fiancé a recommend unless they both swore a sacred oath that they would never have oral sex. Apparently they caved because they did get married. I always thought of it as a case of misery loves company.

OMG... was this after the infamous oral sex letter but before the quiet redaction?

This is a truly goofy church. 🤪

I think that idea persisted way past the quiet redaction. As I young man about to marry, I do remember feeling a bit apprehensive and confused about what sorts of sexual activities were "okay" and what were unholy WITHIN marriage. Fortunately, my stake president let me know that it was ok to remove garments for sporting activities and added that his wife felt like sex was a sporting activity.

Ok, we can get naked when we do it, dear. Ain't that great?

This is truly a goofy church. 🤪

[Mormorrisey]

She is now pushing to attend the Temple regularly and I don't want too. I find it to cultish weird & disturbing. I'm wanting to set a firm boundary to not go. She gets all upset threatens divorce etc.

I'm not sure how her wanting to go to the temple equates to YOU having to go. Never quite understood this concept, as Mormon doctrine states quite clearly she has free agency, as do you. If she wants to go to the temple regularly, support her in every way possible. And state clearly that what she wants is fine with you. And perhaps then state that what YOU want, which is not to go, should be fine with her. Lookit, maybe that kind of open dialogue takes time in a mixed faith marriage, but your level of church activity should not be a deciding factor in the continuation of the marriage. That's a tad troublesome in my view, and hopefully over time this kind of threat will decrease. That's a tough one, for me. Spouses should respect the level of activity, on both sides. I have to hold my tongue constantly over Sis. M's level of activity, as it's her choice, even if it bugs the hell out of me. I need to respect that. And she has learned over time that when I've had enough, I am simply going to skip out of the second hour of church and go grab a burger, and I haven't been to the temple in ages. And she has to respect that. And our marriage is much stronger for that kind of respect.

A mixed faith marriage is based on respect on the other person's level of activity, and that's just that. That's a little black and white for me, but I really believe that. I hope your spouse starts seeing it that way, or there might be some rough times ahead. Good luck!

[moksha]

I had a friend who was engaged to get married in the temple, but the SP said he would not grant his fiancé a recommend unless they both swore a sacred oath that they would never have oral sex.

No wonder so many young people walk away from the Church.

Put your hand on the door
Walk away
The world needs genuine people
Walk away
Wear normal underwear
Do your good work elsewhere;
Put your hand on the door
Walk away!

[Deepthinker]

I'm sorry you're going through this with your wife...like others have said, everyone's situations is different and they need to evaluate it for themselves.

My take is that with her threatening divorce if you don't go to the temple, it feels pretty manipulative and doesn't show you the respect in the relationship that you deserve. When my exwife was saying things like this, it made me feel like loving and being with who I am wasn't the main reason she was married to me. Only you can evaluate the overall health of your marriage, though.

My best suggestion would be to determine everything you feel about it, all of your thoughts and concerns, weigh within yourself what you can and can't live with about going to the temple. I really love all the input about reframing the questions asked in the interviews, I did that for several years. It could be more than just getting the recommend to you, and it seems like it is with how you don't like the creepy and culty nature of the ordinances. Once you've come up with how you truly feel, then tell her you've been thinking seriously about it and need to be able to voice your thoughts and feelings to her and that you need her listen.