Following leaders

[Hagoth]

Members of the church seem delighted at any change that comes down from the prophet that reduces their need to sacrifice or do things that they had considered essential emblems of obedience. Shorter church hours, shorter temple sessions, no home teaching reporting, shrinking garments, caffeinated soft drinks, etc. They seem to love any change in Mormonism that is less mormony. I wonder how far from their current lifestyles some might be willing to creep as long as the prophet gives them permission. How many would dump their garments in an instant if they were told they are optional? If Oaks codified and expanded his rhetoric about how parents should treat LGBT children to calls for shunning and even violence, to what degree would LDS parents turn on their own children? Imagine if a senile prophet said heroine is God sanctioned. Would some members immediately start shooting up because they felt like they were fulfilling prophesy? I know that's a silly example, but just how far would it have to go before the majority of members said, "whoa, this ain't right"? I would like to think people would follow an internal moral code, but I keep getting slapped in the face with the realization that way too many of us seem happy to hand over our moral compass to an authority figure if it means we can go along with the crowd.

[Spicy McHaggis]

It will be interesting to see where we're headed. I've realized most religious people have no moral code. It's the agnostic & atheists that seem to have better morals at this point. Oaks will be a challenge for the doubters but the TBMs are going to go right along with him, no matter how horrible it gets.

[moksha]

If Oaks codified and expanded his rhetoric about how parents should treat LGBT children to calls for shunning and even violence, to what degree would LDS parents turn on their own children?

While I can imagine them turning on LGBTQ children in general, I think only the most TBM would turn on their own children.

[nibbler]

Interesting thoughts. What immediately came to my mind was a question. What would the difference be between the reaction to more restrictive rules vs. the reaction to less restrictive rules?

We've seen a spate of less restrictive rules and how they were universally loved. I don't think many of the changes had much of an impact though. They nearly all equated to slightly less of the exact same thing or a different name for the exact same thing. The experience itself didn't really change, only the duration or the name.

If you flipped those changes on their heads, slightly more of the exact same thing, I bet we would have heard lots of grumbling. Four hour church. Filling out and turning in a detailed form for each family for each month for home teaching. A third PH quorum. Garments with slightly longer sleeves. Most people would hate those changes but I think they'd still go along with them.

Are leaders clever enough to know that if they want to make a more drastic change they've got to arc it out over decades so they won't upset their core followers or does slower change just come natural to them because that's the pace at which they themselves change? I bet it's the latter. I don't know that there's much evidence for a master vision that they're working towards.

These days I think more and more members aren't waiting for permission. If they want to dump the garment they go ahead and dump it. Maybe that's happening, maybe that's me projecting.

Another question I have is at what point does the tail start wagging the dog? Less reporting for home teaching, two hour church, one PH quorum. Did those change because the leaders decided to ease the burden placed on members or did they happen out of necessity? Less reporting on home teaching because no one is doing it anyway. Two hour church and one PH quorum because wards are getting smaller and there aren't enough people to staff things out like there used to be. All the recent changes have been reactionary, not proactive.

Want the church to drop garments outside the temple? Just start doing it and just keep ignoring all the conference talks that say you aren't allowed. Eventually leaders will make the change official to give the orthodox members permission and to maintain that illusion of control.

[RealNonEntity]

Members of the church seem delighted at any change that comes down from the prophet that reduces their need to sacrifice or do things that they had considered essential emblems of obedience. Shorter church hours, shorter temple sessions, no home teaching reporting, shrinking garments, caffeinated soft drinks, etc. They seem to love any change in Mormonism that is less mormony. I wonder how far from their current lifestyles some might be willing to creep as long as the prophet gives them permission. How many would dump their garments in an instant if they were told they are optional? If Oaks codified and expanded his rhetoric about how parents should treat LGBT children to calls for shunning and even violence, to what degree would LDS parents turn on their own children? Imagine if a senile prophet said heroine is God sanctioned. Would some members immediately start shooting up because they felt like they were fulfilling prophesy? I know that's a silly example, but just how far would it have to go before the majority of members said, "whoa, this ain't right"? I would like to think people would follow an internal moral code, but I keep getting slapped in the face with the realization that way too many of us seem happy to hand over our moral compass to an authority figure if it means we can go along with the crowd.

I know this is gonna come across as rather cynical, but we see this brainwash from both the political end and religious end. It's almost as if we are destined to be swept away so a new group can come forward which is better fit to keep the earth... cause the saying says peacemakers, not warmongers and haters. Just musing with ya... Your point is well taken and spot on. Group think has become THE Gospel in science, politics, and religion...

[2bizE]

I can see where this is headed with the temporary commandments Oaks is teeing up. He will get rid of coffee and tea from the WoW. The church will then create a new coffee company called Deseret Brew. The church will modify one of the small classrooms in each church house to be a small storefront where coffee and tea will be sold…also, Deseret Brews will pop up on corners through Mordor.

[wtfluff]

I can see where this is headed with the temporary commandments Oaks is teeing up. He will get rid of coffee and tea from the WoW. The church will then create a new coffee company called Deseret Brew. The church will modify one of the small classrooms in each church house to be a small storefront where coffee and tea will be sold…also, Deseret Brews will pop up on corners through Mordor.

Deseret Brews will pop up on corners?

Sheesh. If they put one in every chapel in Mordor they will outnumber Starbucks 10 t0 1.

I don't ever see LD$-Inc. allowing coffee consumption, but this Deseret Brew Idea does cause me to second-think my seeing... A coffee shop in every Ward-House could add quite a few $$$ to Rusty's dragon-hoard of gold, which of course is way more important than the temperature/delivery method of members' caffeine.

Are Deseret Brew employees required to have a current Polygamy Palace Recommend?

[2bizE]

I can see where this is headed with the temporary commandments Oaks is teeing up. He will get rid of coffee and tea from the WoW. The church will then create a new coffee company called Deseret Brew. The church will modify one of the small classrooms in each church house to be a small storefront where coffee and tea will be sold…also, Deseret Brews will pop up on corners through Mordor.

Deseret Brews will pop up on corners?

Sheesh. If they put one in every chapel in Mordor they will outnumber Starbucks 10 t0 1.

I don't ever see LD$-Inc. allowing coffee consumption, but this Deseret Brew Idea does cause me to second-think my seeing... A coffee shop in every Ward-House could add quite a few $$$ to Rusty's dragon-hoard of gold, which of course is way more important than the temperature/delivery method of members' caffeine.

Are Deseret Brew employees required to have a current Polygamy Palace Recommend?

I expect the church to follow its minimal expenses policy and call warm members a volunteer baristas. Missionaries and other volunteers will serve (volunteer) at the Deseret Brew corner locations to reduce expenses and maximize prophets.