Update after meeting with counselor

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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stuck
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Update after meeting with counselor

Post by stuck » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:59 am

I met with Veon also recently after some of you recommended him. I think one of the main problems I have and maybe some others on this site has also is being able to live authentically while being married to believing spouses. For example I have confessed to my wife that I have been drinking coffee and not wearing my garments and listening to podcasts like mormonstories. I have explained that it's not to disrespect her but it just makes my life better doing these things. So in the session we discussed that at some point I am going to have to confront her with my need to live authentically. Because right now I feel like I have to hide these things from her because I know she doesn't like it. Fortunately she has allowed me to stop attending priesthood meeting, but I continue to do these other things without her knowing. When the time is right, I will have to sit down with her and let her know that it is important that I live authentically. He said I could mention that I want to do this in order to live my life with integrity to myself. In my mind there is nothing wrong with doing these things. I do like how Hermey mentioned that therapy has helped him and his family. Hopefully we can get to this point as well.

stuck
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by stuck » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:26 pm

I know it's a process. Does anyone have any suggestions? I guess just keep going slow. The good thing is now she seems to be more open to listening to the other side. She wanted to study come follow me with her about the priesthood recently and I relented. When we were done she said do you have anything to add and I said do you want to know more about the critical viewpoint and then we turned to Mormonthink and read some stuff, so that was good.

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græy
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by græy » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:07 pm

It sounds like you've made it farther down the path than I have. I'm coming up on 4 years in my FC and just got installed as EQP. I believe my DW knows more about my position than she'll admit to herself, but any conversation that even hints at my asking to be released or missing meetings results in days of tears and short tempers.

I wish I had advice to give, every situation is different. Keep taking it slowly, just not as slow as me. :)
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

stuck
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by stuck » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:27 pm

Man Graey, I don't know how you do it. After my FC I could only accept a calling to teach primary to the 7 year olds with my wife and I made her do most of the teaching. After that, I wouldn't accept anymore callings. That would be great if I new my elder's quorum president had had a FC though. I think I might be slightly more likely to attend :?

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Hermey
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by Hermey » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:56 pm

Best advice is just to hang in there, keep moving forward, and don't give up. This is a process - pour a little water and back off. Then give it time and let it freeze/thaw. Rinse & repeat. Eventually, that rock will crack. Sometimes it just takes a long f*cking time, but make no mistake, those brain droppings will rattle around in her head chipping away from the inside.

stuck
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by stuck » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:27 pm

Thanks for your comment Hermey, I think that will be a great day if and when my wife is not so tbm and ocd about doing what the church wants her to do.

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Linked
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by Linked » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:21 pm

It's tough when doing something as vanilla as choosing your underwear can cause despair in our loved ones. But it is understandable from a believing perspective. I think doing the little things that keep you sane without broadcasting them to your DW is a fine temporary place to be. I hope so anyway for my sake :lol:.

Even with the hidden stuff, there can still be progress in other areas that should be celebrated, like her stamp of approval on your reduced priesthood attendance. Hopefully someday she comes around to a point where you are both comfortable with you sharing your coffee and underwear choices openly.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

stuck
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by stuck » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:28 pm

Thanks for your comment Linked!

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Angel
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by Angel » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:17 pm

I was the 1st one out - now my DH is pretty much out too. One kid is out, the other 2 still have friends in church so like to attend the youth activities. My DH stopped wearing G's over vacation, and I stopped just over a year ago. Freedom! Still have some church friends I feel awkward around, but otherwise things are going well.

Trying to re-define spirituality together - if you take something away, it is good to fill the void with something better. Uplifting books, new Sunday traditions, best wishes for the new year!
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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2bizE
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by 2bizE » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:37 am

Angel wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:17 pm
I was the 1st one out - now my DH is pretty much out too. One kid is out, the other 2 still have friends in church so like to attend the youth activities. My DH stopped wearing G's over vacation, and I stopped just over a year ago. Freedom! Still have some church friends I feel awkward around, but otherwise things are going well.

Trying to re-define spirituality together - if you take something away, it is good to fill the void with something better. Uplifting books, new Sunday traditions, best wishes for the new year!
What are some new traditions you have developed For Sundays?
~2bizE

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:52 am

When I was at this stage and first brought up my doubts to my DW, it really threw her into some painful cogdis. Later I also disclosed that I was sometimes having a beer at lunch with friends at work, another dose of cogdis. I assured her I was not jumping off a deep end, that I had real questions I was struggling with, that I'd stay faithful, but still just live my life according to MY conscious outside of church. She said she didn't want to know if I was drinking and for a while that's how we lived, me pretending, her not asking. But it did come up once in a while and she had hope I could find answers to my questions. But in reality it just put a ton of weight on her shelf and her own doubts started to bloom; tender mercies!

Every couple will be different, but for your own sanity, I would try to live your life authentically outside of church and your relationship with your spouse. I didn't like doing things behind her back, but it made me be in a better mood to have the mental release from it all and that better mood helped reassure my DW that I was there for her no matter what and was actually a better husband and dad when my mental state was more healthy.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Corsair
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by Corsair » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:23 am

stuck wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I know it's a process. Does anyone have any suggestions? I guess just keep going slow. The good thing is now she seems to be more open to listening to the other side. She wanted to study come follow me with her about the priesthood recently and I relented. When we were done she said do you have anything to add and I said do you want to know more about the critical viewpoint and then we turned to Mormonthink and read some stuff, so that was good.
Think of the annual Primary Sacrament Meeting, especially when your children were participating. I'm sure that you congratulated your kids afterwards. Because seriously, it was actually terrible. A couple of kids are clearly not singing on pitch and they make up for with being loud. There is no control of tone and dynamics only manifest in not singing quite as loud as you were expecting. Much of the audience is quietly hoping to break up the monotony by having some 4 year old go off script and yell about dinosaurs into the microphone. Nobody remembers or cares what the "theme" was because that's not the point.

My dear, believing wife plays piano for Primary and I'm pretty sure that she would agree how Primary is far more about providing a supportive environment for kids rather than distinctly teaching doctrine. Primary also serves as an unintentional advanced course in Christlike love and charity for several teachers that are dealing with borderline special needs kids. The point is meeting people at their level of spirituality. I seriously think that God looks at us with a similar perspective of how we look at small children.

Your believing friends and family are at a level of spirituality that is driving you crazy. Unfortunately, you don't get to move them to your position simply because you believe in the rightness of your cause. They might never get to that position. Do you love them enough to remain with them even if they will never change their views? This is not a threat. It's simply reality, and a real application of Christlike love and charity, which allegedly never faileth.

You are in this for the long haul. If your happiness is based on a change of doctrinal beliefs in either your family or the institutional church, you are going to live with existential suffering. Can you accept and love your family where they are at? Mormonism has it's obvious problems, but it's not the worst way to live. I'm not asking for tolerance of any abuse whatsoever. This is a call to live with joy with your family and their expensive religious hobby.

The most appealing path forward might appear to end up with all family members united in a singular apostate vision of sleeping late on Sunday then arising for mid-morning coffee. That is not reality simply because humans virtually never entirely agree with each other, even ones married to each other. I'm shocked at how I would not agree with myself from a few years ago. Our children will always surprise us with what they want to do with their life and will inevitably scandalize us in some manner. Determine why and how you will love them even if they insist on fervently holding a temple recommend.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:04 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:23 am
stuck wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I know it's a process. Does anyone have any suggestions? I guess just keep going slow. The good thing is now she seems to be more open to listening to the other side. She wanted to study come follow me with her about the priesthood recently and I relented. When we were done she said do you have anything to add and I said do you want to know more about the critical viewpoint and then we turned to Mormonthink and read some stuff, so that was good.
Your believing friends and family are at a level of spirituality that is driving you crazy. Unfortunately, you don't get to move them to your position simply because you believe in the rightness of your cause. They might never get to that position. Do you love them enough to remain with them even if they will never change their views? This is not a threat. It's simply reality, and a real application of Christlike love and charity, which allegedly never faileth.

You are in this for the long haul. If your happiness is based on a change of doctrinal beliefs in either your family or the institutional church, you are going to live with existential suffering. Can you accept and love your family where they are at? Mormonism has it's obvious problems, but it's not the worst way to live. I'm not asking for tolerance of any abuse whatsoever. This is a call to live with joy with your family and their expensive religious hobby.
I can't second this advice enough - many people on this board, including Corsair, continue to echo this advice, and I'm so glad I took it to heart when I first discovered NOM some years ago. It saved my marriage. Literally. Can't thank those who gave this advice enough.

Complete and utter apathy to all things Mormon have saved me too, and has allowed Sis. M and I to grow closer together WITHIN my faith "crisis." She can think what she wants, I think what I want, and we just try to enjoy life together. It's hard, it's long, it's lots of work, but totally worth it. And BOTH of you have to give up something. I'll post about this soon, when I have time, but life is so much better when I stopped trying to convert my spouse to my way of thinking. I developed empathy for her viewpoint, yet have not given up mine. It's been very, very good for a couple of years now, and this advice from Corsair and others is the reason.

Now, your spouse has to give up, in large measure, their rigid religious dogmatism too - and that might be the rub. It took awhile, and some real change from Sis. M, and she managed to do this, along with the changes I had to make to move away from converting her to my way of thinking. But we both moved from our rigid spots, and it's made all of the difference in our marriage.

Good luck navigating all of this.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

Arcturus
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by Arcturus » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:27 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:04 pm
Corsair wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:23 am
stuck wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:26 pm
I know it's a process. Does anyone have any suggestions? I guess just keep going slow. The good thing is now she seems to be more open to listening to the other side. She wanted to study come follow me with her about the priesthood recently and I relented. When we were done she said do you have anything to add and I said do you want to know more about the critical viewpoint and then we turned to Mormonthink and read some stuff, so that was good.
Your believing friends and family are at a level of spirituality that is driving you crazy. Unfortunately, you don't get to move them to your position simply because you believe in the rightness of your cause. They might never get to that position. Do you love them enough to remain with them even if they will never change their views? This is not a threat. It's simply reality, and a real application of Christlike love and charity, which allegedly never faileth.

You are in this for the long haul. If your happiness is based on a change of doctrinal beliefs in either your family or the institutional church, you are going to live with existential suffering. Can you accept and love your family where they are at? Mormonism has it's obvious problems, but it's not the worst way to live. I'm not asking for tolerance of any abuse whatsoever. This is a call to live with joy with your family and their expensive religious hobby.
I can't second this advice enough - many people on this board, including Corsair, continue to echo this advice, and I'm so glad I took it to heart when I first discovered NOM some years ago. It saved my marriage. Literally. Can't thank those who gave this advice enough.

Complete and utter apathy to all things Mormon have saved me too, and has allowed Sis. M and I to grow closer together WITHIN my faith "crisis." She can think what she wants, I think what I want, and we just try to enjoy life together. It's hard, it's long, it's lots of work, but totally worth it. And BOTH of you have to give up something. I'll post about this soon, when I have time, but life is so much better when I stopped trying to convert my spouse to my way of thinking. I developed empathy for her viewpoint, yet have not given up mine. It's been very, very good for a couple of years now, and this advice from Corsair and others is the reason.

Now, your spouse has to give up, in large measure, their rigid religious dogmatism too - and that might be the rub. It took awhile, and some real change from Sis. M, and she managed to do this, along with the changes I had to make to move away from converting her to my way of thinking. But we both moved from our rigid spots, and it's made all of the difference in our marriage.

Good luck navigating all of this.
The above by Corsair and Mormorrisey is spot on.

My $0.02 contribution. It's awesome that she's willing to read critical material with you. Priesthood article on MormonThink??? [Applause] IMO, to the extent she's willing to explore both critical and supportive information then it's a matter of time until the critical information changes her worldview for the better such that she's much more tolerant of your decisions and way to live life. I don't know of anyone who is familiar with all the mess of Mormon past and maintains a Mormon McConkie'ite orthodox view. Seems like the future is bright for you.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Angel
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Re: Update after meeting with counselor

Post by Angel » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:43 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:37 am
Angel wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:17 pm
I was the 1st one out - now my DH is pretty much out too. One kid is out, the other 2 still have friends in church so like to attend the youth activities. My DH stopped wearing G's over vacation, and I stopped just over a year ago. Freedom! Still have some church friends I feel awkward around, but otherwise things are going well.

Trying to re-define spirituality together - if you take something away, it is good to fill the void with something better. Uplifting books, new Sunday traditions, best wishes for the new year!
What are some new traditions you have developed For Sundays?
Sleeping in, jogging, and sadly work :( ... but, nice to have one less thing to juggle. I have started throwing dinner get-to-gethers as a way to gather my own community.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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