Snuffer Movement Conference

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asa
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by asa » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:56 pm

Snuffer does not claim to be a scholar. At most he is a knowledgeable layman who knows a bit about higher criticism and has some familiarity with the writings of Bart Ehrman , Raymond Brown ,NT Wright, and other biblical scholars. If that is all he claimed or if that was his principal claim most should and would ignore him . He would be yet another in a long line of scribes and Pharisees who glory in their own intellect rather than the revealed word of God. To use his own words ' it would be like" following a parade of blind fools endlessly quoting each other". Who cares what the higher critics have to say IF you have had direct communication with God and his angels. He will often say he carefully studied an issue out in his own mind and come to what he thought was a correct conclusion only to be told by God he was wrong. He is only worth even thinking about if you subscribe to the proposition that he is a true messenger like Jeremiah ,John the Baptist or Peter and receives visions ,revelations and communes directly with God. He has written prophecies, claimed revelations, and acted as a seer. He has written and published more than 17 books consisting of more than a million words . He is the most prolific writer on Mormon issues since Joseph Smith. If I had to choose I would prefer a modern prophet in every sense of the word over yet another PhD in biblical studies from the Univ of Chicago or Yale or Johns Hopkins no matter how unorthodox or radical or archaic his interpretation of scripture. I understand that most here would make a different choice but it is dissembling to look at a man who claims to be a prophet sent from God and complain he doesn't have the requisite academic credentials

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Red Ryder
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:44 pm

Sincere questions here Asa. I value your participation on NOM because I always learn something from reading your posts.

How do we know he is a true messenger sent from God? How do we know he's spoken with God? What convictions are needed to follow Denver without feeling like we've been down this path nearly 200 years ago?
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

asa
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by asa » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:17 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:44 pm
Sincere questions here Asa. I value your participation on NOM because I always learn something from reading your posts.

How do we know he is a true messenger sent from God? How do we know he's spoken with God? What convictions are needed to follow Denver without feeling like we've been down this path nearly 200 years ago?
Excellant question Red. It depends upon your epistemology. The plan A or TBM answer is “ask god”. But of course if your basic premise is God doesn’t reveal things to people then you have to go to your plan B whatever that is for you. In my case I still subscribe to plan A because I personally have had good results with it.I also have a plan B approach which is study everything he has said and written over the last decade or more including all 17 books and all million words.I also look at his claimed revelations and seership efforts and test them against my admittedly incomplete knowledge of the way I think God has interacted with man. If that all comes together in a logical coherent package that confirms the result of my plan A investigations then I am willing to at least accept the possibility he is what he claims to be. I also look at the results of participation.Furthermore the costs associated with this conclusion are very low. I don’t have to pay him money. I get to freely associate with people I like. Rather than being told where and when and with whom I can worshipThere is no compulsion or shaming associated with my little community as we gather to worship together in our shorts and t shirits rather than white shirits and suitcoats. .we are free to worship how we will without the need to genuflect to some ecclesiastical hierarchy. Actually the present approach more closely resembles the description of the way worship was conducted among the earliest Christians as reflected in the Ante Nicean Fathers than anything I have ever seen.There are no creeds, no Articles of Faith, no one asking how much money you have paid for the privilege of participating.There is simply a joint desire to worship Christ and serve one another. You might say that I consider the fruits thus far to be good.. If that changes I will be the first to say so. Finally to end my diatribe let me say that it has always seemed to me the the sole purpose of any religion is to bring us to God. If the religion you practice isn’t doing that you need a different one that does. For me this mets that criteria

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oliver_denom
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by oliver_denom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:03 am

asa wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:56 pm
I understand that most here would make a different choice but it is dissembling to look at a man who claims to be a prophet sent from God and complain he doesn't have the requisite academic credentials
Just to be clear, I don't care if someone has academic credentials. It's the content I care about, the source doesn't matter. My question is more closely aligned to Red Rider's.

I personally want a religious community again, but not one where I have to pretend to believe claims I know to be false. Why is it necessary to root new teaching in an ancient text? It's as if there's an effort there to make people believe that the teachings themselves are ancient, and that feels deceptive. If someone like Suffer were to teach the same principles or even the same doctrines without appealing to an unsupported historical narrative, or an idiosyncratic interpretation of an ancient language, I'd be far more inclined to learn more.

I'm actually open to having faith. I don't need a scientific or rational base for spirituality, but that spirituality should at least be complimentary with those things and not contradictory to them. I needs to be able to adapt and withstand the acquisition of new knowledge. If a scientific discovery has the ability to destroy a theology, then how is that theology a strong enough foundation to build a spiritual life in the information age?
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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wtfluff
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:01 am

    • How accepting is the Snuffer Movement of the LGBTQIA community?


    Edited to add additional questions:
    • How accepting is the Snuffer Movement of people of color?
    • Gender equality in the Snuffer Movement?
    Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

    Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

    Brilliant.

    asa
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    Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

    Post by asa » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:08 pm

    wtfluff wrote:
    Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:01 am
      • How accepting is the Snuffer Movement of the LGBTQIA community?


      Edited to add additional questions:
      • How accepting is the Snuffer Movement of people of color?
      • Gender equality in the Snuffer Movement?
      Good questions . To begin with you must remember that we are talking about a disparate group of maybe 1000 people scattered in small groups around the world. Strictly speaking there is no "Snuffer movement " There is no creed ,no hierarchy ,no leader and no correlation committee insuring uniformity. It is characterized by a desire to worship Jesus as our Savior ,serve one another and strive to bring about Zion. In my own little group there is a great variety of opinion on almost every subject but people of good will who have common goals can agree to disagree. i have no doubt that there may be rabid racists so0mewhere but most believe that God is no respecter of persons and all are welcome to come to Christ whether bond or free, white or black ,male or female or gay or hetero. There are most certainly more women than men . Denver said being aware about how men had abused the priesthood he petitioned the Lord to permit women to hold the priesthood but was told not yet. But he does teach that since women can not hold the priesthood yet no man should be ordained to the priesthood w/o 7 women interviewing him ( w/o men present ) and then voting whether to permit him to officiate in the ordinances or be ordain . One of the women must be his wife if he is married.

      asa
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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by asa » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:26 pm

      oliver_denom wrote:
      Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:03 am




      Why is it necessary to root new teaching in an ancient text? It's as if there's an effort there to make people believe that the teachings themselves are ancient, and that feels deceptive. If someone like Suffer were to teach the same principles or even the same doctrines without appealing to an unsupported historical narrative, or an idiosyncratic interpretation of an ancient language, I'd be far more inclined to learn more.
      Ah yes it is a problem when ones hermeneutics disagree with anothers. As you know wars have been fought over that issue. It is also painful to have our paradigm threaten by new information. I am sure you are very familiar with Kuhns views in SSR. The problem with tying our willingness to accept ideas to their compliance with existing beliefs is illustrated by the famous story of Galileo and the telescope. He offered to let a variety of church men and scholars look at Jupiter through it. The apparently accurate story is that the only person who refused was the Professor of Physics at the Univ of Padua Professor Libri . He refused because he knew it could not be true. He didn't need to look. The problem of tying our belief system to contemporary biblical scholarship is exacerbated because the ground is always shifting. When William Albright began his work in Palestine 100 or so years ago he was roundly criticized for believing that the OT might have a modicum of truth. His paradigm shaking work transformed biblical archeology . Now the American school in Jerusalem is named after him. The trick is to be willing to be open to new ideas no matter how uncomfortable we may be with the methods utilized to create those ideas. What may be the received wisdom of the day may be in the dust bin of history tomorrow as a result of a single discovery . Think Dead Sea Scrolls , Nag Hammadi documents (both of which I have recently inspected - they are cool ) or the recent discovery of bullae which appear to have been the property of Isaiah and Hezekiah or the ossary of Caiaphis ( individuals the higher critics thought were fictitious not so long ago). See the latest issue of BAR for articles.Finally just because we can not accept the whole package does not mean that a substantial part of it may not be true aka throwing out the baby with the bath water. As Snuffer himself said " we are damned not so much by our ignorance but by that which we know to be true but isn't. ' Good luck in your quest. ps sorry for my prolixity.

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      oliver_denom
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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by oliver_denom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:48 pm

      asa wrote:
      Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:26 pm
      Ah yes it is a problem when ones hermeneutics disagree with anothers. As you know wars have been fought over that issue. It is also painful to have our paradigm threaten by new information. I am sure you are very familiar with Kuhns views in SSR. The problem with tying our willingness to accept ideas to their compliance with existing beliefs is illustrated by the famous story of Galileo and the telescope. He offered to let a variety of church men and scholars look at Jupiter through it. The apparently accurate story is that the only person who refused was the Professor of Physics at the Univ of Padua Professor Libri . He refused because he knew it could not be true. He didn't need to look. The problem of tying our belief system to contemporary biblical scholarship is exacerbated because the ground is always shifting. When William Albright began his work in Palestine 100 or so years ago he was roundly criticized for believing that the OT might have a modicum of truth. His paradigm shaking work transformed biblical archeology . Now the American school in Jerusalem is named after him. The trick is to be willing to be open to new ideas no matter how uncomfortable we may be with the methods utilized to create those ideas. What may be the received wisdom of the day may be in the dust bin of history tomorrow as a result of a single discovery . Think Dead Sea Scrolls , Nag Hammadi documents (both of which I have recently inspected - they are cool ) or the recent discovery of bullae which appear to have been the property of Isaiah and Hezekiah or the ossary of Caiaphis ( individuals the higher critics thought were fictitious not so long ago). See the latest issue of BAR for articles.Finally just because we can not accept the whole package does not mean that a substantial part of it may not be true aka throwing out the baby with the bath water. As Snuffer himself said " we are damned not so much by our ignorance but by that which we know to be true but isn't. ' Good luck in your quest. ps sorry for my prolixity.
      It sounds like my real problem then, is a failure to see what's new and different here. I've read some of Snuffer's talks and materials on his website, and his approach to scripture and doctrine has every appearance of Joseph Smith's approach to scripture and doctrine.

      What's the best entry point for me really understand what I'm handling here?
      “You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

      L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:38 pm

      asa wrote:
      Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:08 pm
      Good questions . To begin with you must remember that we are talking about a disparate group of maybe 1000 people scattered in small groups around the world. Strictly speaking there is no "Snuffer movement " There is no creed ,no hierarchy ,no leader and no correlation committee insuring uniformity. It is characterized by a desire to worship Jesus as our Savior ,serve one another and strive to bring about Zion. In my own little group there is a great variety of opinion on almost every subject but people of good will who have common goals can agree to disagree. i have no doubt that there may be rabid racists so0mewhere but most believe that God is no respecter of persons and all are welcome to come to Christ whether bond or free, white or black ,male or female or gay or hetero. There are most certainly more women than men . Denver said being aware about how men had abused the priesthood he petitioned the Lord to permit women to hold the priesthood but was told not yet. But he does teach that since women can not hold the priesthood yet no man should be ordained to the priesthood w/o 7 women interviewing him ( w/o men present ) and then voting whether to permit him to officiate in the ordinances or be ordain . One of the women must be his wife if he is married.
      Well, asa, I'm referring to the "disparate group" as the Snuffer Movement, because you, as a member? Follower? Of said disparate group, referred to the group as: Snuffer Movement.

      As far as gender equality: If women can not hold the priesthood, then there is no gender equality. I don't think it matters how many women approve of an ordination, if they can't be ordained themselves.

      So we know what Snuffer himself says about gender equality (god still prefers patriarchy), what does Snuffer himself actually say about LGBTQIA people, and people of color?

      Along the same lines as RR: "Mormon" movements have historically been on the wrong side of race and gender/sexuality issues: How is this latest "mormon" movement any different?
      Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

      Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

      Brilliant.

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      Hagoth
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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:59 pm

      asa wrote:
      Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:17 pm
      . The plan A or TBM answer is “ask god”. But of course if your basic premise is God doesn’t reveal things to people then you have to go to your plan B whatever that is for you.
      And here we have the central problem for most of us here. I like the idea of this movement. It kind reminds me of early Mormonism. My problem is that Plan A is a total mess for me. No matter how devout and believing and humble/representative I have been, even as a missionary giving every waking hour to teaching the gospel, Plan A has never worked for me. In fact, every time I have prayed for a specific answer about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or the Prophetic calling of Joseph Smith I have received the most powerful spiritual feelings of my life, and the answer was always a hard NO. So, three options: these things are not true, or God is lying to me, or Plan A just doesn't work for me. Unfortunately my Plan B is empirical study, which leads to the same conclusions. So, damn.

      That said, Layton is my hometown, so I may just be tempted to drop by in September. An actual visitation or fiery tongues of flame or something would certainly make an impression, if Denver can arrange something like that.

      Thanks for the report ASA! I'm fascinated that the beer turned the conversation away from trivialities and toward deep doctrine. Go beer!
      “The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

      Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

      asa
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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by asa » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:04 pm

      Wtfluff you view on gender equality is an interesting one and I can understand the logic of your analysis .The question may be framed differently however by asking whom has the real power the person blessing the sacrament or the person whose approval is necessary before the ordnance can be performed by any particular man. Incidentally a group of 12 women have the right to terminate the guys power to bless the sacrament and baptize etc As Orwell said" some are more equal than others' . Here you have to have female approval to perform any priesthood function and that approval can be removed by females ( not by males) at any time. I think that on this issue the power arguably rests with the females Besides priesthood is nothing more than an opportunity to serve others . Those who think of it as a power trip or seek personal aggrandizement don't understand it very well . Incidentally so far as I know Denver has not said much about racial issues or gay rights beyond the fact that all are equal before God and God loves all of his children unconditionally. Thanks for your thoughts

      asa
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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by asa » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:13 pm

      Hagoth wrote:
      Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:59 pm


      That said, Layton is my hometown, so I may just be tempted to drop by in September. An actual visitation or fiery tongues of flame or something would certainly make an impression, if Denver can arrange something like that.

      Thanks for the report ASA! I'm fascinated that the beer turned the conversation away from trivialities and toward deep doctrine. Go beer!
      I will ask just for you. Hope to see you in Layton

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      Red Ryder
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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by Red Ryder » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:28 pm

      Thanks Asa for this thread and your thoughts and answers.

      I think I'm at a point in my life where I'm interested in so many other things and enjoy my Sundays and weekends that I don't see a need for organized religion. However your posts have me considering what I want in regards to a spiritual community. It sounds fascinating to be on the cusp of something bigger. Like further light and knowledge Mormonism promised but so far can't deliver.
      Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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      Not Buying It
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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by Not Buying It » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:38 pm

      It’s not any of my business what anyone else believes. Anyone who wants to follow Denver Snuffer is free to without much comment from me. But I will say this - if my disaffection from the Church has taught me anything, it has taught me I will never again think any other human being speaks for God. If God wants me to think someone is His spokesperson, He’d better make it damn near impossible for me to not believe it. Someone else’s feelings and insights are no longer enough to convince me they speak for the Almighty. The Sagan standard that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" applies here.

      But you can believe whatever you want.
      "The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

      asa
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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by asa » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:13 pm

      Not Buying It wrote:
      Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:38 pm
      It’s not any of my business what anyone else believes. Anyone who wants to follow Denver Snuffer is free to without much comment from me. But I will say this - if my disaffection from the Church has taught me anything, it has taught me I will never again think any other human being speaks for God. If God wants me to think someone is His spokesperson, He’d better make it damn near impossible for me to not believe it. Someone else’s feelings and insights are no longer enough to convince me they speak for the Almighty. The Sagan standard that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" applies here.

      But you can believe whatever you want.
      Actually NBI I absolutely agree. Incidentally I like the Sagan quote

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      Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

      Post by Random » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:35 pm

      wtfluff wrote:
      Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:01 am
        • How accepting is the Snuffer Movement of the LGBTQIA community?


        Edited to add additional questions:
        • How accepting is the Snuffer Movement of people of color?
        • Gender equality in the Snuffer Movement?
        There is no creed addressing any of this. In other words, nothing official.

        I can say that no one I know of rants about the "homosexual agenda" like I've seen in other places. People are just people to the people I know, as far as I know.

        People of color would be accepted if any were interested (this is presupposing you mean those of African descent, as there are others who are not white who are part of the movement). I don't know if they are interested or not, as I don't presently know of any in the movement. It is common knowledge, though, that Joseph Smith had no problem giving all men the priesthood and it wasn't until after he died that BY took it away from the ones with skin color he hated.

        Gender equality - Women are not to perform public ordinances. Denver asked the Lord and that's what the Lord said, and said it was because of the fall. To me, the implication was that in the Millennium (when the fall has been completely "fixed"), it could or would be different. At the same time, women can bless their husbands and children (blessing the children alone or jointly).
        There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

        Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
        PK

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        Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

        Post by Random » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:39 pm

        I didn't attend that conference, though I did watch some or most of it online. I didn't attend the other one mentioned in this thread, and it was a while before I listened to a recording of Denver's talk at it.

        I was very impressed with the talk about the Divine Parents. Quite interesting, and it gave me a lot to think about.
        There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

        Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
        PK

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        Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

        Post by dogbite » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:15 pm

        asa wrote:
        Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:17 pm

        Excellant question Red. It depends upon your epistemology. The plan A or TBM answer is “ask god”. But of course if your basic premise is God doesn’t reveal things to people then you have to go to your plan B whatever that is for you.
        TimMinchin wrote:I don't go for ancient wisdom
        I don't believe just 'cos ideas are tenacious it means they are worthy

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        2bizE
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        Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

        Post by 2bizE » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:10 pm

        I’d forgotten about Snuffer for an age.
        Is that movement still happening?
        ~2bizE

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        Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

        Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 am

        2bizE wrote:
        Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:10 pm
        I’d forgotten about Snuffer for an age.
        Is that movement still happening?
        In general, I can't imagine that Russell and Dallin could do anything to stop it. If I were truly interested in the latest news from Denver Snuffer and the Remnant movement, what is the best way to get their latest news?

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