Snuffer Movement Conference

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asa
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Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by asa » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:58 pm

There is a conference entitled Wisdom Through The Ages scheduled in Mesa this weekend. All are invited free of charge .All are welcome if interested. I will add the

link later but the address for the website is wisdomthroughtheagesconference.com

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Hagoth
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:42 am

Thanks, Asa. Please return and report your general impressions.

I'm hoping for reports of some heavenly manifestations or spiritual outpouring that will make LDS conference look like an accountants convention by comparison.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by Corsair » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:26 am

This conference is being held about 4 miles from my house. I already skipped church once this month to attend Sunstone earlier this month. Adding in attendance with Denver Snuffer would probably make my wife's head explode. Not out of anger, but out of sheer confusion. I would then need to attend an atheist conference to balance out my philosophical state.

Asa, thanks for announcing this. Let us know how it goes.

asa
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by asa » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:42 am


I'm hoping for reports of some heavenly manifestations or spiritual outpouring that will make LDS conference look like an accountants convention by comparison.
If General Conference is the standard the bar is set quite low. There will be baptisms at the river (the weather is spectacular )and lots of congregational singing that will NOT sound like a funeral dirge. Wine making classes in the evening together with intensive study of Isaiah. See doesn’t that sound better than GC

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2bizE
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by 2bizE » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:54 am

I’ve never liked the words General Conference and General Authority. Very non creative and boring descriptions...wait, I guess the words are appropriate descriptors. Sorry for getting off topic.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:56 am

asa wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:50 am
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:42 am


I'm hoping for reports of some heavenly manifestations or spiritual outpouring that will make LDS conference look like an accountants convention by comparison.
If General Conference is the standard the bar is set quite low. There will be baptisms at the river (the weather is spectacular )and lots of congregational singing that will NOT sound like a funeral dirge. Wine making classes in the evening together with intensive study of Isaiah. See doesn’t that sound better than GC
All you'd you need to get me there would be the promise that there wouldn't be a big, belching organ. I've always hated that damn thing. Never cared for the sound of MoTab either. I did some river baptisms on my mission. Awesome.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:09 am

asa wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:50 am
Wine making classes in the evening...
For some reason the above phrase piqued my interest... :D

Will there be tasting classes also?

What about Mild Drinks of Barley?


(No I won't be traveling to AZ. When there's Snufferite ethanol tasting classes closer to the belly of the beast, maybe...)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

asa
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by asa » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:19 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:56 am
asa wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:50 am
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:42 am


I'm hoping for reports of some heavenly manifestations or spiritual outpouring that will make LDS conference look like an accountants convention by comparison.
If General Conference is the standard the bar is set quite low. There will be baptisms at the river (the weather is spectacular )and lots of congregational singing that will NOT sound like a funeral dirge. Wine making classes in the evening together with intensive study of Isaiah. See doesn’t that sound better than GC
All you'd you need to get me there would be the promise that there wouldn't be a big, belching organ. I've always hated that damn thing. Never cared for the sound of MoTab either. I did some river baptisms on my mission. Awesome.
So promised. No pipe or electronic organ of any size.No choir of any size.No hierarchy of any size. No “General” anything. Just a community of 500-1,000 people who believe in Christ worshiping together. ps home made wine (ie wine of your own make )tasting and mild barely drinks available

Tangent
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by Tangent » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:45 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:56 am
asa wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:50 am
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:42 am


I'm hoping for reports of some heavenly manifestations or spiritual outpouring that will make LDS conference look like an accountants convention by comparison.
If General Conference is the standard the bar is set quite low. There will be baptisms at the river (the weather is spectacular )and lots of congregational singing that will NOT sound like a funeral dirge. Wine making classes in the evening together with intensive study of Isaiah. See doesn’t that sound better than GC
All you'd you need to get me there would be the promise that there wouldn't be a big, belching organ. I've always hated that damn thing. Never cared for the sound of MoTab either. I did some river baptisms on my mission. Awesome.
Too bad the church has ruined organ music for you. I have heard some absolutely fantastic music played in organ. Just not in an LDS context.

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Hagoth
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by Hagoth » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:59 am

Tangent wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:45 am
Too bad the church has ruined organ music for you. I have heard some absolutely fantastic music played in organ. Just not in an LDS context.
I don't blame the church. I blame KSL for broadcasting into my brain via Mom and Dad's TV and radio every Sunday morning. From my first memories I just thought it was an ugly, overly-complex sound. The one exception is Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, which I think is one of the most magnificent compositions of all time, and which can only really be played effectively on a big-a$$ organ. Too bad we never hear that one in conference!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

asa
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by asa » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:19 pm

I thought I should return and report. The conference was held yesterday and today..There were approximately 500 people in attendance each day. But hundreds more just watch the live broadcast from home.Sat mornibg consisted of talks and a xpvote on some matters dealing with the guide to be adopted by the group . It has been a contentious issue with vocal minority of about 5% of the group dissenting. In the afternoon people gathered at the Salt River for picnics and baptisms. Later in the evening there were gatherings for different age groups. We had one gathering at my house for 20 something singles. A number brought their own mild barley drinks ( beer). It was very interesting to watch because as the beer began to have predictable results the activities moved from games to discussions of the significance of the King Follett discourse and the Lectures on Faith.I was surprised. The alcohol affected them in a very unusual manner.Today we met again and heard a 3 hour talk from Denver Snuffer on basically our Heavenly Mother. I will only very briefly summarize his comments. They are available together with 137 footnotes on his website.He said HM was active in our lives even though subtly shielded in large part .The catholic understanding of Mary was much closer to the truth than most traditions including our own as LDS . She truly is the Queen of Heaven.He also “blew up “ the whole Adam god issue a very surprising way that left most of our heads spinning . In addition he spent some time recasting the whole parable of the Garden of Eden and the creation of man and woman in a way no one I know of has ever thought of. He also include a plea for unity and recognition of individuality and reemphized that there was no hierarchy Rather we must all be equal before God because Zion can not be built on any othe principle See as promised no choir,no organ no general anything and as wide ranging and novel a talk on the deepest aspects of Mormon doctrine I personally have heard in 70 years of sitting through talks in an LDS setting.Sorry for the brevity of the summary but it was three hours of intensive review and analysis of the scriptures relating to the topic. For those ,if any ,interested I again recommend reading the whole talk which as mentioned will be posted on his website soon.The next conference will be in Layton UT at the end of Sept.

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moksha
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by moksha » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:33 pm

asa wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:19 pm
In addition he spent some time recasting the whole parable of the Garden of Eden and the creation of man and woman in a way no one I know of has ever thought of.
Did he mention this as an allegory of Mankind moving from a creature of instinct to a creature of sentience once the fruit of knowledge was acquired?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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moksha
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by moksha » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:49 am

Flightless Bird wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:33 pm
Did he mention this as an allegory of Mankind moving from a creature of instinct to a creature of sentience once the fruit of knowledge was acquired?
If that was Denver's interpretation, then perhaps in a further sermon he will offer the explanation of God preferring the meat sacrifice of Abel to the vegetable sacrifice of Cain, because the Levitical priests were getting sick and tired of eating turnips and wanted some roast lamb.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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wtfluff
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by wtfluff » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:56 pm

asa wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:19 pm
A number brought their own mild barley drinks ( beer).
Image
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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oliver_denom
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by oliver_denom » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:00 pm

asa wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:19 pm
For those ,if any ,interested I again recommend reading the whole talk which as mentioned will be posted on his website soon.The next conference will be in Layton UT at the end of Sept.
The talk is up here:

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... -FINAL.pdf

He really doors channel Joseph Smith when interpreting scripture. I found it interesting, but distracting that he doesn't seem to recognize higher criticisms. For example, the plural word for God used with a singular verb, can also be explained by the fact that the bible was edited, harmonized, and corrected by monotheistic writers hundreds of years after the stories were initially told orally. They, the writers of these books, did not hold the belief that "Elohim" references a god and goddess couple. They were attempting to fix stories from a polythestic past where the Elohim were an entire pantheon of Gods , nothing like a Mormon concept at all.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

asa
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by asa » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:30 pm

moksha wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:49 am
Flightless Bird wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:33 pm
Did he mention this as an allegory of Mankind moving from a creature of instinct to a creature of sentience once the fruit of knowledge was acquired?
If that was Denver's interpretation, then perhaps in a further sermon he will offer the explanation of God preferring the meat sacrifice of Abel to the vegetable sacrifice of Cain, because the Levitical priests were getting sick and tired of eating turnips and wanted some roast lamb.
Actually he goes into the Cain and Abel thing in some length. As you know the scriptures also make it clear why Cain’s offeringwas rejected.While your explaination is novel and amusing it is without theological or historical support

asa
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by asa » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:09 pm

[quote=oliver_denom post_id=35998 time=1522116030 user_id “nothing like a Mormon concept at all.”
[/quote]

I beg to differ . Look at Abrahim chapters 4and 5 and you will see it is the “Gods” who create the earth according to their ( the Gods plural )plans. Irrespective of you personal beliefs about the book of Abraham You can’t get more “Mormon “ than that. I recommend that you readMullem’s The Assembly of the Gods p 175 et seq. Barker’s The Great Angel ,particularly chapter 4,R Patai The Hebrew Goddess ,or Philo , You may find the idea isn’t as reductionist as you think. Finally it may be helpful to remember that Snuffer’s claims arise not from modern scholarship or higher criticism although he shows a general familiarity with them ( he particularly likes Bart Ehmans stuff) but from his claim of direct unequivocal revelation from God himself . In this matter he certainly is channeling Joseph. Some would say thank god after almost 200 years we finally have a man who actually testifies that God speaks to him and reveals the mysteries of Godliness.It may be that some may even benefit from giving heed to what he says.

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moksha
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by moksha » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:36 am

asa wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:30 pm
moksha wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:49 am
Flightless Bird wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:33 pm
Did he mention this as an allegory of Mankind moving from a creature of instinct to a creature of sentience once the fruit of knowledge was acquired?
If that was Denver's interpretation, then perhaps in a further sermon he will offer the explanation of God preferring the meat sacrifice of Abel to the vegetable sacrifice of Cain, because the Levitical priests were getting sick and tired of eating turnips and wanted some roast lamb.
Actually he goes into the Cain and Abel thing in some length. As you know the scriptures also make it clear why Cain’s offeringwas rejected.While your explaination is novel and amusing it is without theological or historical support
Yeah, that explanation was premised on some later writer (who may have been a priest and was tired of eating turnip offerings) creating the stories in Genesis. Of course, historical data found in the ancient FARMSmalfactorum suggests otherwise.

It's sort of like my explanation of why pork is a forbidden meat for Jews and Muslims. Their ancestors, driven into a ravenous frenzy by the smell of cooking bacon, could not wait for it to cook properly before eating it. As a result, they developed tricky noses with lead to the Laws of Kashruth.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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oliver_denom
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:17 am

asa wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:09 pm
oliver_denom wrote: “nothing like a Mormon concept at all.”
I beg to differ . Look at Abrahim chapters 4and 5 and you will see it is the “Gods” who create the earth according to their ( the Gods plural )plans. Irrespective of you personal beliefs about the book of Abraham You can’t get more “Mormon “ than that. I recommend that you readMullem’s The Assembly of the Gods p 175 et seq. Barker’s The Great Angel ,particularly chapter 4,R Patai The Hebrew Goddess ,or Philo , You may find the idea isn’t as reductionist as you think. Finally it may be helpful to remember that Snuffer’s claims arise not from modern scholarship or higher criticism although he shows a general familiarity with them ( he particularly likes Bart Ehmans stuff) but from his claim of direct unequivocal revelation from God himself . In this matter he certainly is channeling Joseph. Some would say thank god after almost 200 years we finally have a man who actually testifies that God speaks to him and reveals the mysteries of Godliness.It may be that some may even benefit from giving heed to what he says.
[/quote]

What I meant by this is that the polytheism of the area, proto-Israelite, is a very different concept from the way Mormonism describes the existence of multiple gods. In Mormonism, there is a strict hierarchy wherein each human being who has achieved godhood fulfills a particular role within the system with the understanding that they will later fulfill higher roles or functions as their authority grows beneath them. As their human family expands, a person who has reached godhood then expands their role as set out in the grand plan of things.

The proto-Israelite pantheon didn't look like that. The gods were not exalted humans, and there was no strict hierarchy. They would war with one another, and their dominions were limited and sometimes overlapping. Yahweh might be the god of this particular mountain and worshiped by this particular people, while Baal would be the god of thunder and lightening worshiped by some other group of people. El was a sky god and Asherah his consort, but still a goddess in her own right with her own cult and worshipers.

These are very different systems of gods. Whereas Mormonism teaches the strict worship of a singular deity, the proto-Israelite religion did not. They might only worship the particular god of their city, but would recognize the existence and power of the other gods within their own particular domains. The monotheist religion that rose out of this polytheistic milieu was appalled by it and did all they could to erase it from the people, some of those efforts are recorded in the bible itself.

The question for me then, is what is it that Snuffer is claiming to do here with the scripture? If it's to uncover the "original intent" or understanding of the writers, then his interpretations are demonstrably false. Neither the proto-Israelite polytheism, nor the revisionist monotheists that followed it, taught or believed in those interpretations. He would have to argue that they didn't really understand what they were writing, or that the words and history as they have existed don't actually mean what they say. If, however, he's using the scripture as a jumping off point to expound some sort of new prophetic theology, or even to explain the theology that Smith formulated, then it's more tolerable. But it certainly compounds the problems that Smith himself started by giving every impression that his interpretations are rooted in factual, literal history.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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Corsair
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Re: Snuffer Movement Conference

Post by Corsair » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:49 am

oliver_denom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:17 am
The question for me then, is what is it that Snuffer is claiming to do here with the scripture? If it's to uncover the "original intent" or understanding of the writers, then his interpretations are demonstrably false. Neither the proto-Israelite polytheism, nor the revisionist monotheists that followed it, taught or believed in those interpretations. He would have to argue that they didn't really understand what they were writing, or that the words and history as they have existed don't actually mean what they say. If, however, he's using the scripture as a jumping off point to expound some sort of new prophetic theology, or even to explain the theology that Smith formulated, then it's more tolerable. But it certainly compounds the problems that Smith himself started by giving every impression that his interpretations are rooted in factual, literal history.
Is this particularly different than the endless parallelism that Hugh Nibley regularly came up with in his comparison between LDS theology and ancient beliefs? Nibley's brand of apologetics relied on finding comparisons like this in support of current LDS doctrine. Nibley seemed to really like Brigham Young's theology and seemed to not be entirely "opposed" to the Adam-God theory.

Joseph Smith's laughable attempts at ancient languages was the model improved upon by Nibley's ease at quoting ancient sources that were often inaccessible to the average reader. Denver Snuffer seems to be the logically modern version of that level of proof texting. Snuffer validates scripture based on Joseph Smith, not based on a careful exegesis of ancient sources clarified by a knowledge of history and comparison with related texts.

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