Mormon Stories "Middle Way" Series

[Ghost]

Apparently, Mormon Stories is starting a new series of interviews with people who follow some sort of "middle way" in Mormonism. (They had an episode on this theme a while back, but it was a panel discussion rather than an interview.) I listened to the first of these today, with Derrick Clements:

http://www.mormonstories.org/derrick-clements/

Dehlin started by outlining some possible attitudes that people who stay LDS can have (roughly: ignorance, apathy toward the suffering of others, family pressure, and a desire to change things from within, if I remember correctly). Clements didn't feel as if he fell neatly into any of these categories. He seemed to focus on identity more than anything, perhaps with some degree of each of the things Dehlin mentioned.

In another part of the conversation, Clements described himself as not relying on the validity of truth claims in determining his path, while also not seeing himself as remaining Mormon simply because it "works" for him. He explained that it doesn't always "work." Dehlin brought up the idea of having one's cake and eating it too. Clements thought that cake was not the best metaphor, and suggested that it might be more accurate to talk about one's kidney than cake.

I can relate to Clements's expressed attitude in some ways, though he seems to lean on spirituality more than I do at this point. I found their discussion a good framework for further analyzing my own attitudes. Since I already do that constantly, it's nice to find some familiar ideas expressed by someone else so that I can hear them from the outside.

[MalcolmVillager]

Dehlin started by outlining some possible attitudes that people who stay LDS can have (roughly: ignorance, apathy toward the suffering of others, family pressure, and a desire to change things from within, if I remember correctly).

Q- Do you the difference between ignorance and apathy?

A- I don't know and I dont care.

Haha, I kid. . . .

I downloaded the episode today and look forward to listening on my run tomorrow. I don't know how you say ignorance. Isnt that the definition of a TBM?!! (Okay, so some are well read but with confirmationitis). I know for me in my TBM days it was ignorance.

For me it is all about tribe, community, and family. All things I did not choose. Sometimes she. I say it is my tribe, others assume I mean it is the group with which I identify, and feel comfortable with. It simply means it is the tribe among whom I dwell. The last thing you do is piss off a hornets nest that you live next to.

I sometimes tell myself I want to change the COJCOLDS from within. All I really want to do is change the perspective of family, friends and members of my ward.

I look forward the the series. Although MSP has started lots of series lately that end up being 2 or 3 episodes.

[Red Ryder]

Hmmm....

I think it would be absolutely funny to do an MS interview with Corsair, Korihor, Malcolm Villager, and a few other NOMs to explain the new middle way, disbelieving style.

Some of us would have to wear a brown paper bag to stay anonymous.

I'm going to try to get ahold of Dehlin.

[2bizE]

I am trying to take the middle way and it is hard. I sit in church on Sundays and cannot stomach the lies and deceit taught by perfectly deceived people. The problem is these are my friends, my community, my tribe. Love toward fellow men outweighs the smug, bold, untruths of the church. I almost feel like I am in prison with all of these friends; unable to escape and so it is better to develop friendships and get along. There is no hope of living in the outside world. Just dreams. No hope. Quietly suffering, and trying to savour what I can find in life.

[Corsair]

Hmmm....

I think it would be absolutely funny to do an MS interview with Corsair, Korihor, Malcolm Villager, and a few other NOMs to explain the new middle way, disbelieving style.

Some of us would have to wear a brown paper bag to stay anonymous.

I'm going to try to get ahold of Dehlin.

I had the same amusing thought. I read through the text description of the Mormon Stories interview with Derrick Clements. I still hold a current temple rec but those descriptions don't quite resonate with me. Three big questions are listed in the text which are:

1. “Is it disingenuous to stay active in the LDS Church with knowledge of ‘problems’ of historicity and knowing the harm the church inflicts on groups of people, like LGBTQ individuals?”
2. “Are the people who remain complicit in that harm?”
3. “Should the teachings of the church be taken literally or metaphorically?”

I would answer these questions like this:

1. LGBT individuals should simply the LDS church and find the community that better supports them. Yes, I am more than a little disingenuous in my activity, but it works for me in an amusing way.
2. Yes, the people that remain are possibly a bit complicit in that harm. But I simply see that it's my job to let LBGT LDS youth near me know that they have better options than staying single and celibate in the LDS church.
3. I don't take the teachings of the church literally or metaphorically. Some of their ideas are simply wrong. My membership is marginally useful for me and me alone. One of these days that might change.

[Red Ryder]

3. I don't take the teachings of the church literally or metaphorically. Some of their ideas are simply wrong. My membership is marginally useful for me and me alone. One of these days that might change.

I can't even claim marginalized usefulness anymore. I only occupy a cold hard metal chair in the overflow sitting next to my wife and kids staring at the basketball hoop or counting ceiling tiles. Did you know the left side of the front half of the gym has 754 ceiling tiles? That's how useful church has become for me.

I've often thought about spirituality and redefining it in my life. Honestly, I just can't do it though.

So now I focus on humanity. No middle way necessary...

[moksha]

I think it would be absolutely funny to do an MS interview with Corsair, Korihor, Malcolm Villager, and a few other NOMs to explain the new middle way, disbelieving style.

Some of us would have to wear a brown paper bag to stay anonymous.

Hope you guys can manage better costumes than the brown paper bags you mentioned. Go colorful. If you can get it together by next year, then NOMicon 2018 will be spectacular.

[Ghost]

Another thing that I found interesting in this interview is that John Dehlin said he couldn't bring himself to leave the LDS church on his own and had to be kicked out. This stood out to me because I've noticed a lot of emphasis in some of his interviews on the idea of being complicit in harm caused by an organization by associating with the organization.

I suppose this simply illustrates the point Clements made that not everyone can reduce the question of what path to take to a single consideration (one of those four proposed categories, for example).

Clements also mentioned a common counterargument that if you disassociated with any group that you felt acted immorally in some ways, you might end up with no associations at all. Especially in the case of government (though they didn't mention that specifically), it might be valid to ask, "Where will you go?"

Side note, but another thing that muddies the water a little, at least for me, is that I might conclude that a particular approach seems moral, but at the same time I'm realizing that we seem to simply make up morality as we go along, rather than discovering universal cosmic truths or receiving guidance from a perfect being. So I have to consider the groundwork for my morality at the same time that I'm attempting to apply it to my life. So far, my approach has largely been to hang on to principles that I acquired from Mormonism.

It would be fun to hear from someone in the NOM forums in one of these interviews.

[Korihor]

Hmmm....

I think it would be absolutely funny to do an MS interview with Corsair, Korihor, Malcolm Villager, and a few other NOMs to explain the new middle way, disbelieving style.

Some of us would have to wear a brown paper bag to stay anonymous.

I'm going to try to get ahold of Dehlin.

I'm in.

My version of the middle way - tell everyone you don't believe but show up anyway. Be honest and find your real friends.
No calling, but everyone is just plain ''happy to see you" when you show up.

[Raylan Givens]

I am trying to take the middle way and it is hard. I sit in church on Sundays and cannot stomach the lies and deceit taught by perfectly deceived people. The problem is these are my friends, my community, my tribe. Love toward fellow men outweighs the smug, bold, untruths of the church. I almost feel like I am in prison with all of these friends; unable to escape and so it is better to develop friendships and get along. There is no hope of living in the outside world. Just dreams. No hope. Quietly suffering, and trying to savour what I can find in life.

I have the same feelings, but I am now okay with people believing...or ignoring what is right in front of their face.
Maybe people like being deceived. It is easier in some ways to just follow the line. All the answers are there in a nice wrapped bow. I don't wish for many of my family or friends to leave the church. It means to much to them and gives them much. One my friends was way more destructive out of the Church than in. I often wonder what it would be like if she stayed in?

I am glad you are savouring what you are finding in life.

[Yobispo]

I like John a lot, but I thought he came off very condescending in this interview. I thought it was especially odd considering his long journey and years of trying to find a middle way himself. I also thought he went out of his way to take credit for the nuanced ways to define belief, as though nobody else had ever thought of those things.

Starting to worry a little about brother John and his ego. Maybe he's got something going on right now, I don't know, but there is a different vibe lately. Anyone else pick up on this, or is it just me?

[Red Ryder]

I like John a lot, but I thought he came off very condescending in this interview. I thought it was especially odd considering his long journey and years of trying to find a middle way himself. I also thought he went out of his way to take credit for the nuanced ways to define belief, as though nobody else had ever thought of those things.

Starting to worry a little about brother John and his ego. Maybe he's got something going on right now, I don't know, but there is a different vibe lately. Anyone else pick up on this, or is it just me?

It's always been there. You're just now picking up on it which is a positive indicator of your growth and progress. No need to worry about John unless he starts to have sex with his congregation members and podcasts about taking additional wives. Then we should worry.

BTW, good to see you over here in these parts of the mormon web. Your comments on Reddit are always spot on!