JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

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w2mz
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JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by w2mz »

I'm teaching EQ today and the lesson is on Rasband's talk from last conference, "Let the Holy Spirit Guide".

Near the end of the talk, he has a reference from JS which says:
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that if you will listen to the first promptings, you will get it right nine times out of ten.
The footnote has a reference, but you can't follow the link
Truman G. Madsen, Joseph Smith the Prophet (1989), 103
Does anyone know the context for this quote? I want to ask the Elders the following question -

"What about that 10th time? (Serious question) What if that is the time you decide who to marry, what job to take, if there is even a possiblity of not getting it right, how much confidence can we have with the first 9 promptings?"

I don't have access to that Truman Madsen book and I can't find any detail to that reference online. Any help appreciated!
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic »

Interestingly, Bill Reel recently asked this question on his facebook page and offered 500 bucks to the one who could dig up the original contemporary quote. It turns out that the quote was a second hand account and in some publication located in a Utah State University collection.
Last edited by FiveFingerMnemonic on Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic »

Found the source mentioned in Bill's post. It's in the Diary of Charles Lowell Walker.

http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/usupress_pubs/171/

Link to the facebook discussion:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 1307236400
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w2mz
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by w2mz »

Awesome! Thank you!

Interesting that an apostle would use a second hand account from an obscure journal in a conference talk...
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Palerider
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by Palerider »

9 times out of 10 is something I would consider a figure of speech, meaning the majority of times.

But this is really a non-starter for Joseph (if he even actually taught it) because all you have to do is look at Helen Mar Kimball's (and many many others) initial prompting on polygamy. The great majority were repulsed by the notion.
I believe that was the Spirit giving them the correct response but Joseph manipulated them to overcome their best and clearest feelings in order to submit to his will.

So he really didn't believe in the "initial prompting" theory even if he did teach it.
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Palerider
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by Palerider »

w2mz wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:08 am Awesome! Thank you!

Interesting that an apostle would use a second hand account from an obscure journal in a conference talk...
If it supports Joseph as a prophet they'll use something a drunken lunatic heard in a poker game from a saloon girl.

If it doesn't support him you have to have it documented on tape or film from a first hand source who is under oath and whose nickname just happens to be "honest Abe".... :?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

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deacon blues
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by deacon blues »

I'm trying to imagine the extensive research that enabled Joseph Smith to come up with those statistics. :roll:
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w2mz
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by w2mz »

Thanks for the info, I was hoping to have a bit of a spirited discussion with that quote. As it turned out, we didn't even get that far into the talk... had a couple of guys who were more than happy to yammer away re their thoughts on the god head.

I actually wanted to have the discussion about "9 out if 10" but alas, it didn't happen.

Oh well.

Thanks again!
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic »

w2mz wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:02 pm Thanks for the info, I was hoping to have a bit of a spirited discussion with that quote. As it turned out, we didn't even get that far into the talk... had a couple of guys who were more than happy to yammer away re their thoughts on the god head.

I actually wanted to have the discussion about "9 out if 10" but alas, it didn't happen.

Oh well.

Thanks again!
You could haved asked what happened to the belief in the trinity in early mormonism and started quite a discussion or at least looks of confusion. :)
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w2mz
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by w2mz »

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:12 pm You could haved asked what happened to the belief in the trinity in early mormonism and started quite a discussion or at least looks of confusion. :)
Funny you say that... I came sooooooo close to asking about the trinity. I asked them if god and Jesus both have bodies and they all agreed. Then I asked them if god and Jesus both have spirits as well, and again they agreed. Then I asked, "Okay, then if god and Jesus have spirits AND bodies, are their spirits constrained to their bodies, like ours, so that their spirits can't separate from them?" It was then that the yammering of those 'knowledgeable' guys ensued regarding the role of the HG etc.

My next question, if we would have had the time, was going to be "Isn't it clear then how some churches believe in a trinity, where the father is also the Holy Ghost so he can can communicate with us 1:1 without having a third party involved?" 😀

There was much pontificating, but most of the other guys were staring at their phones enduring to the end like usual.

I don't mind teaching, it's fun to throw chum in the water and watch the carp boil the water.
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by blazerb »

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:54 pm I'm trying to imagine the extensive research that enabled Joseph Smith to come up with those statistics. :roll:
76.3% of statistics are made up on the spot. :D
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by Corsair »

blazerb wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:12 am
deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:54 pm I'm trying to imagine the extensive research that enabled Joseph Smith to come up with those statistics. :roll:
76.3% of statistics are made up on the spot. :D
Faithful LDS members often do not have a background in understanding what constitutes a material claim. If something can be tested empirically, logically, or statistically, then it has a material basis and can be objectively evaluated. Most thoughtful believers will stay away from these unless the results are obviously helpful to their faith. The witness of the spirit will end up looking unreliable when it is used against material claims.

The more recent arguments about what constitutes "official doctrine" in the LDS church arose from material claims getting made that did not lead to faithful conclsions. There may be statistics about doctrine and statistics that do favor the LDS church, but most members don't rigorously look for them until after 76.3% of their statistics fail on them a few times.
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deacon blues
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Re: JS Reference to "9 times out of 10"

Post by deacon blues »

Right, Corsair. Sometimes you will hear a TBM say, or imply that 'Moroni's promise' is 100% reliable, but such a thing has never been tested. It might be possible to test Moroni's promise, but the church, though they love their home teaching and temple work stats, would probably resist quantifying anything like 'Moroni's promise.'
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.
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