The New Israelites....as if we needed another reason not to believe

[Vlad the Emailer]

Separation from gentiles, treasure seeking/"seeing" with magical objects, and polygamy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Israelites

Gee, any surprise that Smith Sr and Cowdery Sr apparently were involved with this "sect" and later Joe Jr and Oliver Jr created a sect that would ultimately have these same elements?

Nawww, I'm sure it was all just coincidence.

[Korihor]

This is interesting, something I wasn't aware of previously. This isn't a smoking gun, but it sure seems to be one more piece of the puzzle.
Thanks for sharing.

My personal beliefs include Oliver Cowdery being in on the scheme in some form. I don't know if Oliver was the mastermind and JS was the puppet. However, it seems reasonable to imagine a conversation between JS and OC going something like this:

"We could write a book about some other people that know Jesus"
"Ya, my dad once said something about New Israelites, maybe that could work"
"No way! My dad talked about New Israelites too!"
"What was that guys name... Nathan Wood... or something, let's check that out."
"Wait, first we need a new rock and new hat, we gotta do things the right way."

[achilles]

Interesting. The more I learn about the atmosphere of the area during time of JS, the less remarkable the Mormon Restoration seems to me. I just bought the Kindle version of Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, and I am excited to learn more.

[Hagoth]

The fascinating connection with Joseph Sr. is that he was the first patriarch of the Mormon church, and giver of patriarchal blessings. That looks like a direct connection to this group, considering their claims to be literal descendants of the House of Israel. Their temple building aspirations also ring a bell.

[deacon blues]

I believe everything, or almost everything that Joseph Smith came up with can be found in his environment. He just had the "genius" to apply it in a religious setting to motivate his followers to do what he said. Those who say Joseph was a "religious genius" and those who say he was a "conman genius" are saying much the same thing.

[document]

The more I learn about the atmosphere of the area during time of JS, the less remarkable the Mormon Restoration seems to me.

I just finished "Christianity, the First 3,000 Years" which gives much the same impression of Mormonism. It builds up this scene in the Americas then Mormonism springs out of it quite predictably. What is most interesting to me is that those roots are becoming increasingly lost over the years, due to first Brigham Young, then Joseph F. Smith, then David O. McKay, then finally Gordon B. Hinckley. Each internal reformation of Mormonism has morphed it from this fascinating sect from the Burned Over District during the Second Great Awakening.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Yep, and apparently they were into counterfeiting currency, which has a possible anecdotal connection to Oliver being the go to man when the Kirtland Safety Society needed some printing plates for their new bank notes.

[Hagoth]

From the Vermont American, May 7, 1828:
http://olivercowdery.com/gathering/Newisrael.htm#minor1

They claimed, also, inspired power, which was to cure all sorts of diseases -- intuitive knowledge of lost or stolen goods, and ability to discover the hidden treasures of the earth

[RubinHighlander]

Totally supports the "We are the special God's chosen people" narrative. I think this narrative/platform for which many religions have been created is the crux of the problems those religions cause in the world. This narrative runs deep in Mormon culture: peculiar people, adopted into the house of Israel, the priesthood authority, the BOM, temple, garments...

If we could rid ourselves of this narrative with the religions and governments of the world and stick to altruism our lives would be much improved!

[Hagoth]

Hey, RubinHighlander, I'm glad you found us!

[RubinHighlander]

Hey, RubinHighlander, I'm glad you found us!

Thanks Hagoth!

I ventured over to ex-mo forums but it's a ghost town over there. I'd been pinging the nom site once in a while but EMC tipped me off it was back up. This place is so much better than any other I've found on the web. Top notch folks here and excellent content.

[moksha]

Tangential evidence for this connection comes from Chief Mormon Apologist Dr. Daniel C. Peterson, who had declared his belief and support for the New Israelite practice of dowsing for water (possibly gold as well?) with a dowsing rod. Dr. Peterson reports that while he had the gift, not everyone is sensitive enough to detect still waters running deep. You can find him on his Sic et Non Blog at Patheos.com.

[Hagoth]

The funny thing about dowsing is that there's either a suitable water table under your property or there's not. It's kind of like walking around a football field trying to find that special spot that has grass. There's a reason dowsers are pretty good at finding water but not so good at finding gold. I've never heard of a billionaire dowser.

[AllieOop]

Separation from gentiles, treasure seeking/"seeing" with magical objects, and polygamy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Israelites

Gee, any surprise that Smith Sr and Cowdery Sr apparently were involved with this "sect" and later Joe Jr and Oliver Jr created a sect that would ultimately have these same elements?

This group is so similar to the early church (organization and beliefs) that I've learned if you even mention them on a faithful Mormon forum, the thread gets locked immediately. The apologists simply have no real explanation or any good arguments to defend or deny that they existed and that there was a Mormon connection. The only thing they can maybe argue is that we can't be sure that Joseph Smith, Sr. was involved, but I have found very good sources stating that he was (state histories, statements from witnesses, etc., and from different reliable sources).

Looking into the "Fraternity of the Rodsmen" is remarkably similar to the fraternities that Joseph set up within his structure of the church.

Here's some more information on them:
http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/smithrod.htm

I researched this group quite extensively at one time and have a ton of info on them (I won't bore you with all of it here ). But here's some information that I think is interesting (and brief):

After Nathaniel Woods was excommunicated from his ministry with the Congregational Church, he formed a secret religious group that included the parents of Joseph Smith, Jr. Through nongregational records the link between the Winchells, Woods, Cowderys and Smiths can be made. The evidence suggests that the occult practices that Lucy Smith openly admitted her family practiced were likely participated in by the entire set of families that formed the Fraternity of Rodmen. Mormon scholar D. Michael Quinn writes, "Such coincidence of time, place, and occult activity among these people suggests that there could have been personal acquaintance that linked them and encouraged them to participate in similar and joint occult activities.

The names of those who were "Rodsmen" or in the "Fraternity of Rodsmen" along with Oliver Cowdery's father and Joseph Smith Sr.: Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, Orrin P. Rockwell, Joseph and Newel Knight, and Josiah Stowell.

[Hagoth]

Wow, that really changes the entire origin story of the church. The official narrative was that there was nothing until Joseph went to the grove and everything was revealed to him from that point out of thin air. The fact that the same group of people span both the New Isreaelites/Rodsmen and the earliest manifestation of the Mormon church suggests that the restoration was really just a continuation, the next step in something that had been underway for at least a generation.

This would make a fascinating article for Dialog or the Mormon History Association (I'm looking at you, Allie!) or possibly a book: Restoration or Evolution?

There really is a strong case if you take into account the Moundbuilder myths, the treasure digging traditions, the Burned Over District restorationist activities/sermons/divine visitations, the masonic narrative of George Oliver, the influence of Nathan Smith and Solomon Spaulding, the use of occult devices (seer stones, parchments, rods, urim and thummim), etc. The case could be made that all of this stuff was synthesized by Joseph Smith and others into two major movements: Mormonism and spiritualism, one which eventually focused on the religious element and one on the occult element.

[AllieOop]

This would make a fascinating article for Dialog or the Mormon History Association (I'm looking at you, Allie!) or possibly a book: Restoration or Evolution?

You know, one of the threads I'm still mourning the loss of from our dear old NOM forum is the thread on this topic. George Miller had posted all of his research on this topic there and so had I (and others too). I wish I'd saved it, but it's not one of the ones I saved (I've looked... )

I wish we could get George on here again....and John Hamer....sigh. I hate to think of the loss of so many of their incredible posts that they spent so much time on and I really do hope we can somehow still restore them (but it looks like that possibility is getting slimmer as time goes on here).

It makes me very sad....but we will just have to recreate our own new incredible threads here now and move on

[Hagoth]

This would make a fascinating article for Dialog or the Mormon History Association (I'm looking at you, Allie!) or possibly a book: Restoration or Evolution?

You know, one of the threads I'm still mourning the loss of from our dear old NOM forum is the thread on this topic. George Miller had posted all of his research on this topic there and so had I (and others too). I wish I'd saved it, but it's not one of the ones I saved (I've looked... )

I wish we could get George on here again....and John Hamer....sigh. I hate to think of the loss of so many of their incredible posts that they spent so much time on and I really do hope we can somehow still restore them (but it looks like that possibility is getting slimmer as time goes on here).

It makes me very sad....but we will just have to recreate our own new incredible threads here now and move on

I'll contact George Miller and let him know about the new board. Maybe he'll drop by sometime. He's one of my favorite people.

[moksha]

Hagoth, hope you guys at NOM 2.0 are keeping a backup of this new information in a bomb shelter somewhere.

[AllieOop]

This would make a fascinating article for Dialog or the Mormon History Association (I'm looking at you, Allie!) or possibly a book: Restoration or Evolution?

You know, one of the threads I'm still mourning the loss of from our dear old NOM forum is the thread on this topic. George Miller had posted all of his research on this topic there and so had I (and others too). I wish I'd saved it, but it's not one of the ones I saved (I've looked... )

I wish we could get George on here again....and John Hamer....sigh. I hate to think of the loss of so many of their incredible posts that they spent so much time on and I really do hope we can somehow still restore them (but it looks like that possibility is getting slimmer as time goes on here).

It makes me very sad....but we will just have to recreate our own new incredible threads here now and move on

I'll contact George Miller and let him know about the new board. Maybe he'll drop by sometime. He's one of my favorite people.

That would be great! I have his email, but it's been some time since I've been in touch. Tell him hello from me, if you do get in touch with him. Even if he could just drop by and say hello here and update us on what he's doing now, would be wonderful
Did he ever finish his book, do you know?

[AllieOop]

Hagoth, hope you guys at NOM 2.0 are keeping a backup of this new information is a bomb shelter somewhere.

Great idea