Faith and Evidence

[deacon blues]

For me, faith is acting on my best guess. For years, my best guess was that the BOM was a real historical record that Joseph Smith translated. I acted on that guess. I went on a mission, stayed temple worthy, etc. Then I learned new information and my best guess was that the BOM is 19th century literature. I quit paying tithing, quit going to church, mostly. I had been indoctrinated. Now, I am aware of both sides of the issue. I still use both world views to navigate relationships, but in my heart, my best guess is that Joseph was a fraud-- I'm convinced of it. It would take a lot of authentic information to change back.

[Hagoth]

In the Bible there is a story about some people who decided to do just that. They were going to build a tower high enough to reach Heaven so that God couldn't decide to drown everybody again. Apparently God was not happy with their efforts.

There is also a (bad) Star Trek movie along those lines.

[Corsair]

Why do I have a George Michael song in my head?

Maybe his next album will include a song called "Evidence".

[deacon blues]

One other observation. Mormons like to believe in faith as a principle of power. They interpret Hebrews 11:1-3 to mean God created the worlds by the power of faith. (See also Lectures on Faith I:15-16,34-35.) A careful reading suggests to me that the verses in Hebrew simply mean it is by our faith that we understand that God created the worlds. In my quick search I can find no other scriptural evidence that God created the worlds "by/through" faith. I'd be interested if anyone else has noticed this.

[Newme]

I remember this discussion came up on the NOM 1.0 board. I wish I could look it up. The Mormon definition of faith is self-contradictory.

How is it possible to have faith? Faith is a belief in something that is true that you can't see. If you know that it is true it is not faith - it is knowledge. If you don't know it is true then it isn't faith (just belief). Because what you believe has to be true for it to be faith.

I guess you can have faith but it is impossible for you to know that it is actually faith. You can have a belief in something that is true but if you have faith that implies that you know it is true and suddenly it changes from faith to knowledge... Am I making sense here?

Yeah, it does seem contradictory - as well as how it's usually interpreted - like blind faith - don't question.

I'm trying to think how this may be credible. Someone once said, "Truth is in perspective" and "truth is that which causes influence."
Both of those statements make sense to me - we all see "truth" subjectively and if some influence happens, it truly happens!
Maybe, ie: the placebo effect is where you hope for things that are not yet true - but could be and by believing it, makes it happen.

[Emower]

Scriptural faith for me has always been self contradictory, and an impossibility. If you know something to be true, then it can't be faith. If it is something unprovable, then it also cannot be faith.
Mormon faith however is very doable. If you have a doubt just toe the line, surrender your brain, and follow your leaders and that is exercising your faith.
Faith gets such a huge emphasis in most religions. I don't think it is so important. I think what is really valuable in this life is investigation. I would much rather have a curious son than one who is 100% compliant with what is asked of him.

[deacon blues]

I know parents who are the opposite of you about obedience, and they draw some justification from the church.