How to Reconcile LDS Doubts

[wtfluff]

144,000 get out alive.

What happens to the other billions?

Different stuff.

Differen, like... 144,000 "alive", and billions and billions and billions and billions... Dead?

[Azrael]

What happens to the other billions?

Different stuff.

Differen, like... 144,000 "alive", and billions and billions and billions and billions... Dead?

My understanding is that only 144,000 will be redeemed from Earth. 12,000 from each tribe.

I’m not sure how ‘redeemed’ will manifest. I suspect something like 144,000 people on a spaceship while Planet X resets the surface of Earth with a flyby. I think they will live 1000 or so years with technology before coming back to Earth with Messiah where He will harvest the Earth and restore it to a paradise. After that every soul that ever lived will be resurrected and have another go at it perhaps. I mean that’s just one interpretation.

[Palerider]

It’s not a possibility to me personally because the Holy Ghost did strongly testify of this truth.

When you look back on your testimony, does it seem possible (because you mentioned this earlier) that the Holy Ghost might have led you to the Mormon church for a time because he thought that's what you needed?

Maybe this was a testimony of direction rather than a testimony directly of Joseph Smith?

[Azrael]

It’s not a possibility to me personally because the Holy Ghost did strongly testify of this truth.

When you look back on your testimony, does it seem possible (because you mentioned this earlier) that the Holy Ghost might have led you to the Mormon church for a time because he thought that's what you needed?

Maybe this was a testimony of direction rather than a testimony directly of Joseph Smith?

I know Joseph Smith to be the Restoring Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints either way. He did a great work. The LDS are key to the End of Days and have done great works of goodness in His name and will be honored as they deserve.

The LDS used the Teachings of the Prophets and the Holy Ghost to collect perhaps the most true principles of any other organized religion.

[Angel]

It’s not a possibility to me personally because the Holy Ghost did strongly testify of this truth.

I can not deny this testimony. My Eternal Progression depends on it.

I just found this forum today.

You sound JW to me? Yes, a lot of people here have felt the spirit, and yet here we are...

Funny thing, I felt the spirit when Holland told this amazing missionary story... later that story was taken down, Holland apologized for not telling the truth... I've felt the spirit for so many conflicting things now - it's an interesting thing, the spirit...

[Azrael]

It’s not a possibility to me personally because the Holy Ghost did strongly testify of this truth.

I can not deny this testimony. My Eternal Progression depends on it.

I just found this forum today.

You sound JW to me? Yes, a lot of people here have felt the spirit, and yet here we are...

Funny thing, I felt the spirit when Holland told this amazing missionary story... later that story was taken down, Holland apologized for not telling the truth... I've felt the spirit for so many conflicting things now - it's an interesting thing, the spirit...

Is the lesson that: your assumptions of what the Spirit was testifying to when you feel it are incorrect? Or that there is no real Holy Spirit? Perhaps it was to setup this discussion...

I don’t know a bunch about Jehovahs Witnesses. They were founded close to me, so I know a little.

[wtfluff]

My understanding is that only 144,000 will be redeemed from Earth. 12,000 from each tribe.

I’m not sure how ‘redeemed’ will manifest. I suspect something like 144,000 people on a spaceship while Planet X resets the surface of Earth with a flyby. I think they will live 1000 or so years with technology before coming back to Earth with Messiah where He will harvest the Earth and restore it to a paradise. After that every soul that ever lived will be resurrected and have another go at it perhaps. I mean that’s just one interpretation.

Azrael, Have you looked close enough at this website to realize that the majority of folks who post here no longer believe in the truth claims of mormonism?

[Palerider]

I know Joseph Smith to be the Restoring Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints either way. He did a great work. The LDS are key to the End of Days and have done great works of goodness in His name and will be honored as they deserve.

So it isn't even possible that the scripture below could apply to the LDS situation?

Matt. 7:22-23

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

It also states that even the elect might be fooled.

So you don't think it's even remotely possible. Not even POSSIBLE that the LDS church might not be entirely true?

Of all the millions and millions of people in the world, you are one of the special ones who absolutely cannot be incorrect in this case?

[EternityIsNow]

Regarding the original post here. I agree that Mormons can be really great people. I have relied on them many times, as well as provided service to others. But now on the other side of a faith transition, I see their service as a little sad. Many of the members who are so generous and kind are that way because of fear and some of them do not really want to be that way. They are being emotionally manipulated. Sort of like spiritual slave labor. And I can't go along with it anymore.

The idea that God will just save a handful of people, like the 144000, it's just another Biblical myth. And mythology cannot be confirmed by your feelings. You have to study and learn sources, and so on, to learn actual truth. Truth does not come so easily as just praying and receiving an answer. Yet this is the sort of false idea that drives the charitable church service of many people. I don't deny that there are good outcomes from people choosing to be charitable.

I just find it sad that so many are being manipulated into it and are not really choosing to be that way thinking freely for themselves. I'm sure many church members, if their minds were freed from the traps of false beliefs, would in fact be very humanitarian and charitable people. I just wish they had the choice to make for themselves. Without being manipulated by an organization that does not actually have their best interest at heart. But that is human nature.

Humans manipulate and exploit each other all the time. In business, religion, politics, and society in general. So I guess we just have to deal with all of this.

The church is just a bunch of humans acting like ordinary humans. Not as special as it thinks it is. But there are some great people in the organization, I just wish they were free from false ideologies. The world would be a better place if these people knew the truth.

[Azrael]

I know Joseph Smith to be the Restoring Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints either way. He did a great work. The LDS are key to the End of Days and have done great works of goodness in His name and will be honored as they deserve.

So it isn't even possible that the scripture below could apply to the LDS situation?

Matt. 7:22-23

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

It also states that even the elect might be fooled.

So you don't think it's even remotely possible. Not even POSSIBLE that the LDS church might not be entirely true?

Of all the millions and millions of people in the world, you are one of the special ones who absolutely cannot be incorrect in this case?

Joseph Smith, at a time when I believe he was a fallen prophet, is the only prophet I know of 5hat said the Elect would be deceived. And this false prophecy was allowed to be publish for some reason I suspect...

[Azrael]

Regarding the original post here. I agree that Mormons can be really great people. I have relied on them many times, as well as provided service to others. But now on the other side of a faith transition, I see their service as a little sad. Many of the members who are so generous and kind are that way because of fear and some of them do not really want to be that way. They are being emotionally manipulated. Sort of like spiritual slave labor. And I can't go along with it anymore.

The idea that God will just save a handful of people, like the 144000, it's just another Biblical myth. And mythology cannot be confirmed by your feelings. You have to study and learn sources, and so on, to learn actual truth. Truth does not come so easily as just praying and receiving an answer. Yet this is the sort of false idea that drives the charitable church service of many people. I don't deny that there are good outcomes from people choosing to be charitable.

I just find it sad that so many are being manipulated into it and are not really choosing to be that way thinking freely for themselves. I'm sure many church members, if their minds were freed from the traps of false beliefs, would in fact be very humanitarian and charitable people. I just wish they had the choice to make for themselves. Without being manipulated by an organization that does not actually have their best interest at heart. But that is human nature.

Humans manipulate and exploit each other all the time. In business, religion, politics, and society in general. So I guess we just have to deal with all of this.

The church is just a bunch of humans acting like ordinary humans. Not as special as it thinks it is. But there are some great people in the organization, I just wish they were free from false ideologies. The world would be a better place if these people knew the truth.

All you had to say is, “I don’t believe in Biblical Prophecy”.

Are you expecting me to adopt your lack of faith or something? Abandon my birthright perhaps? Deny the Holy Ghost over your fickle opinion?

Certainly not.

Do you even believe in the 2nd Coming?

How exactly will Christ have to be presented to you in order for you to even believe he has returned?

[Hagoth]

144,000 get out alive.

Here's the problem.

Joseph Smith taught that everyone that dies before the age of 8 will be exalted. He even said in the King Follett Discourse that they will become gods; "Eternity is full of thrones upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory not one cubit added to their stature."

Anthropologists estimate that approximately 100 billion people have lived on the earth (although religious opinions vary dramatically). Statistically half of the people ever born died before the age of 8, most shortly after their birth. That gives you maybe 500 billion exalted gods and goddesses that are infants and toddlers. I'd say they got out alive. Even if you believe in young earth creationism there are many billions of baby gods. If you stick with the odds, even Elohim is likely one of those.

Anyway, that makes that 144,000 number an indiscernible drop in the bucket.

[Palerider]

Joseph Smith, at a time when I believe he was a fallen prophet, is the only prophet I know of 5hat said the Elect would be deceived. And this false prophecy was allowed to be publish for some reason I suspect...

Oh, I think the Savior prophesied of these things long before Joseph Smith was even born.

Matt: 24:24

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The problem is that so many of us think that we are SO SMART that we would spot a false prophet a mile away. We would be able to easily see through a facade, we're so smart.

But the reality is different.

It's almost as if we're saying to the Savior, "Oh, you didn't even have to give that prophecy for MY benefit. I'm a really smart person and I could never be fooled by a false prophet."

It's like we think false prophets come with a sign hung around their neck that says, "FALSE PROPHET, BEWARE!"

But I take the Savior at his word when he says that false prophets look very humble and loving on the outside. They permit rumors of their greatness to be gossiped around. They produce pseudo-scripture and declare it to be the word of God. But for those who really know their Biblical scriptures their phony books are obvious frauds.

Outwardly false prophets look very sweet and humble. Inwardly they run multi-million dollar corporations, love the adoration of men and women, love the presitge and power that comes from "presiding"....

Verily they have their reward.

Some false prophets are easy to detect. Some are much more difficult.... Joseph Smith was one of these.

[Azrael]

144,000 get out alive.

Here's the problem.

Joseph Smith taught that everyone that dies before the age of 8 will be exalted. He even said in the King Follett Discourse that they will become gods; "Eternity is full of thrones upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory not one cubit added to their stature."

Anthropologists estimate that approximately 100 billion people have lived on the earth (although religious opinions vary dramatically). Statistically half of the people ever born died before the age of 8, most shortly after their birth. That gives you maybe 500 billion exalted gods and goddesses that are infants and toddlers. I'd say they got out alive. Even if you believe in young earth creationism there are many billions of baby gods. If you stick with the odds, even Elohim is likely one of those.

Anyway, that makes that 144,000 number an indiscernible drop in the bucket.

I believe you’ve taken some prophetic events out of order.

I believe the 144,000 speaks only of the Elect who will be chosen when Messiah returns to save humanity literally from the fire which will cleanse the Earth.

I envision this as Jesus showing up, technology converging on being able to get 144,000 on a spaceship where technology will prolong their lives for 1000 years. Then Earth settles down from the event that rearranged the Earth’s surface to the point where our current world is no longer, and Messiah leads the 144,000 back to Earth where he harvests it and restores it to a paradise.

These aren’t wild claims or the yammering of a crazy person, this is just one imaginative person’s speculation on how the prophecies we do have in scripture will come to pass.

[Azrael]

Joseph Smith, at a time when I believe he was a fallen prophet, is the only prophet I know of 5hat said the Elect would be deceived. And this false prophecy was allowed to be publish for some reason I suspect...

Oh, I think the Savior prophesied of these things long before Joseph Smith was even born.

Matt: 24:24

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The problem is that so many of us think that we are SO SMART that we would spot a false prophet a mile away. We would be able to easily see through a facade, we're so smart.

But the reality is different.

It's almost as if we're saying to the Savior, "Oh, you didn't even have to give that prophecy for MY benefit. I'm a really smart person and I could never be fooled by a false prophet."

It's like we think false prophets come with a sign hung around their neck that says, "FALSE PROPHET, BEWARE!"

But I take the Savior at his word when he says that false prophets look very humble and loving on the outside. They permit rumors of their greatness to be gossiped around. They produce pseudo-scripture and declare it to be the word of God. But for those who really know their Biblical scriptures their phony books are obvious frauds.

Outwardly false prophets look very sweet and humble. Inwardly they run multi-million dollar corporations, love the adoration of men and women, love the presitge and power that comes from "presiding"....

Verily they have their reward.

Some false prophets are easy to detect. Some are much more difficult.... Joseph Smith was one of these.

I believe, as I stated already, that Joseph Smith (who is my 5th cousin on one line, and his wife Emma Hale my 4th cousin on a different line, my family was around the dawn of the LDS Church’s formation and I have a unique perspective) was called to be a Prophet to restore God’s true and eternal Priesthood back to Earth and to begin the great work of gather the twelve tribes and building the great Temples of God, which he did successfully. The fruits of his work, as in line with the scripture I already cited, demonstrate he was inspired.

He fell when he brought polygamy back and betrayed his wife and the Church. He was removed, polygamy was removed not long after, and Christ’s Priesthood persists to this day again.

[Hagoth]

I envision this as Jesus showing up, technology converging on being able to get 144,000 on a spaceship where technology will prolong their lives for 1000 years. Then Earth settles down from the event that rearranged the Earth’s surface to the point where our current world is no longer, and Messiah leads the 144,000 back to Earth where he harvests it and restores it to a paradise.

These aren’t wild claims or the yammering of a crazy person, this is just one imaginative person’s speculation on how the prophecies we do have in scripture will come to pass.

I appreciate that you are thinking imaginatively for yourself, Azrael. This is something that is not encouraged by the church. You are also taking the word of the scriptures over that of LDS prophets, The church does not teach this 144,000 doctrine. While you're letting your imagination wander you might also make some room for the possibilities that this story is either purely symbolic or wholly mythical. The possibility that someone a couple of thousand years ago might have been as imaginative as you, as opposed to actually seeing into the future, is much more likely in my opinion.

[Azrael]

I envision this as Jesus showing up, technology converging on being able to get 144,000 on a spaceship where technology will prolong their lives for 1000 years. Then Earth settles down from the event that rearranged the Earth’s surface to the point where our current world is no longer, and Messiah leads the 144,000 back to Earth where he harvests it and restores it to a paradise.

These aren’t wild claims or the yammering of a crazy person, this is just one imaginative person’s speculation on how the prophecies we do have in scripture will come to pass.

I appreciate that you are thinking imaginatively for yourself, Azrael. This is something that is not encouraged by the church. You are also taking the word of the scriptures over that of LDS prophets, The church does not teach this 144,000 doctrine. While you're letting your imagination wander you might also make some room for the possibilities that this story is either purely symbolic or wholly mythical. The possibility that someone a couple of thousand years ago might have been as imaginative as you, as opposed to actually seeing into the future, is much more likely in my opinion.

I’m not sure what church you’re attempting to speak for, and in what capacity you represent said church.

I happen to know Mormons sustain scripture, and in that scripture is mention of The Elect, 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes, The Gathering of Israel, and other related scriptural prophecies.

[Azrael]

Fortunately it’s not possible for the Elect to be deceived.

Only 144,000 of every soul that’s ever been shall be considered The Elect.

[wtfluff]

Are you expecting me to adopt your lack of faith or something? Abandon my birthright perhaps? Deny the Holy Ghost over your fickle opinion?

By the same token: Why would you start posting on a message board such as this without doing any research about the tone of said message board, and expect everyone else on the board to believe the way you do, and not question anything you post?

Are the rest of us supposed to set aside our own life's experiences, science, and objective reality because you've felt some elevated emotions which you attribute to ghost?

Dear FSM...

[Azrael]

Are you expecting me to adopt your lack of faith or something? Abandon my birthright perhaps? Deny the Holy Ghost over your fickle opinion?

By the same token: Why would you start posting on a message board such as this without doing any research about the tone of said message board, and expect everyone else on the board to believe the way you do, and not question anything you post?

Are the rest of us supposed to set aside our own life's experiences, science, and objective reality because you've felt some elevated emotions which you attribute to ghost?

Dear FSM...

Often times a person whose chosen a delusion which causes him to believe he speaks for an entire community is suffering the side effects of a Satanic combination in my estimation.

I’m here by completely random circumstance. I use Tap-A-Talk, and typed in ‘Christianity’ to the search field, then subscribed to a dozen or so random rooms.

The title alone does not imply this is a predominately anti-Mormon community to me, I didn’t see a description, but I may not have looked hard enough yet, I’m still new to Tap-A-Talk. Either way, are you trying to insist I’m not welcome to post my opinions here because you both speak for the community and have the authority to enforce its will?