August, 1836

[wtfluff]

You’re free to be the victim here in your mind.

Do all roads lead to victimhood?

I’m not marginalizing you, is it possible I’m critiquing your admitted perception of failure?

Ah yes. It's completely obvious that you're incapable of looking in the mirror, or attempting to see anything from a point of view different than you're own. No matter what imaginative world you live in, calling someone else's experience "fickle" is marginalizing them.

Feel free to keep posting your "imaginations" marginalizing other's experiences (even though you can't realize it,) and playing the victim yourself when literally no-one here agrees with your "imaginations".

[/endfluffyreplies]

[Hagoth]

I can’t imagine what possessed you to go on a mission before having a testimony of the BOM. It’s hard to imagine from my perspective. I think many LDS families are putting too much pressure on their children to go on missions.

Just like 99.9% of missionaries I believed in the Book of Mormon but I had not had the profound confirmatory experience promised by Moroni. I listen very carefully to every new missionary's testimony. The few who actually claim to have prayed for a testimony of the Book of Mormon typically say that they didn't get the answer through prayer and concluded that they didn't need that answer because they already believed it. That's how I got by. The truth is that almost all missionaries are out there because they were born into a culture where it was expected and they were indoctrinated into the expectation of going on a mission.

[Azrael]

I can’t imagine what possessed you to go on a mission before having a testimony of the BOM. It’s hard to imagine from my perspective. I think many LDS families are putting too much pressure on their children to go on missions.

Just like 99.9% of missionaries I believed in the Book of Mormon but I had not had the profound confirmatory experience promised by Moroni. I listen very carefully to every new missionary's testimony. The few who actually claim to have prayed for a testimony of the Book of Mormon typically say that they didn't get the answer through prayer and concluded that they didn't need that answer because they already believed it. That's how I got by. The truth is that almost all missionaries are out there because they were born into a culture where it was expected and they were indoctrinated into the expectation of going on a mission.

And that is sad. I believe it is the root of the prophecy concerning “A generation of vipers”.

Which I believe is the current living generations living in Utah and Salt Lake valleys.

They became like this because they weren’t allowed to obtain their own spiritual witness to the doctrine they are now felt forced to ‘sell’.

They are now vipers selling Dish Network contracts to grandmothers who aren’t going to know how to work the remote control so they can build an overpriced $500,000 shack out of cheap materials on the edge of those mountains.

Good on them for their blind faith, it is the appropriate place they need to be obviously in their eternal spiritual progression. They are cursed as a community to sustain a business to build Christ’s temples and to develop cutting edge science and a mass fortune, they are preparing for Christ’s return and I am sure Christ has inspired them to do what they are doing and they will be rewarded accordingly whether their faith is blind or confirmed by the Father himself clearly.

[Azrael]

You’re free to be the victim here in your mind.

Do all roads lead to victimhood?

I’m not marginalizing you, is it possible I’m critiquing your admitted perception of failure?

Ah yes. It's completely obvious that you're incapable of looking in the mirror, or attempting to see anything from a point of view different than you're own. No matter what imaginative world you live in, calling someone else's experience "fickle" is marginalizing them.

Feel free to keep posting your "imaginations" marginalizing other's experiences (even though you can't realize it,) and playing the victim yourself when literally no-one here agrees with your "imaginations".

[/endfluffyreplies]

In my experience anyone that is someone let’s everyone speak for themselves.

[Palerider]

I can’t imagine what possessed you to go on a mission before having a testimony of the BOM. It’s hard to imagine from my perspective. I think many LDS families are putting too much pressure on their children to go on missions.

Whoa....

It isn't the families fault. Many, many bishops, stake presidents and general authorities have advocated making a "leap of faith" that even if you don't currently have a testimony you should go anyway and you will aquire one while on your mission.

So it leaves the families with little choice but to follow their leadership.

This is a LEADERSHIP problem in the Mormon church, not the problem of families.

And lots of young men and women go on their missions without knowing. I remember them well.

[Azrael]

I can’t imagine what possessed you to go on a mission before having a testimony of the BOM. It’s hard to imagine from my perspective. I think many LDS families are putting too much pressure on their children to go on missions.

Whoa....

It isn't the families fault. Many, many bishops, stake presidents and general authorities have advocated making a "leap of faith" that even if you don't currently have a testimony you should go anyway and you will aquire one while on your mission.

So it leaves the families with little choice but to follow their leadership.

This is a LEADERSHIP problem in the Mormon church, not the problem of families.

And lots of young men and women go on their missions without knowing. I remember them well.

I think we’re both right. This shouldn’t be happening much, let alone often.

I find greed to be a prolific and socially acceptable sin in Utah Mormon culture. It’s gross. Pride is the second most common I think. I think the pressure is there by the family to avoid the social pressure and pain when a child doesn’t serve a mission, and I think the leadership has numbers to maintain.

[Palerider]

I think we’re both right. This shouldn’t be happening much, let alone often.

I find greed to be a prolific and socially acceptable sin in Utah Mormon culture. It’s gross. Pride is the second most common I think. I think the pressure is there by the family to avoid the social pressure and pain when a child doesn’t serve a mission, and I think the leadership has numbers to maintain.

I'm going to make an assumption from the above statement that you may not be a member of the Utah branch of Mormonism but possibly one of the other fractures of original Mormonism.
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Also, your exegetics of the 144000 is to put it bluntly....wrong. Sorry.

If you read the scripture more carefully you will find that each 12000 comes from a literal tribe of Israel. Meaning that they are literal descendants of that tribe. They are indeed Israelites by blood. They are NOT part of the adoption.

Further, if you continue reading from chapter 7 of Revelations starting in verse 9 it states:

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So as it is plainly seen, the 144000 sealed Israelites are most definitely not the only people to receive salvation from the Lord. There are innumerable others who will as well.

For as much as you make of this 144000 issue, I should think that you would want to be very correct in your interpretation of this scripture.

Is it possible you may have been listening to an individual who was portraying himself as a prophet of God but in reality may not have been so?
I would want to be careful that my confirmation bias that grew out of my relation to the man Joseph Smith wasn't in reality putting me at odds with God, don't you think?

I'm sure there are people who are related to the current Pope that believe he is the very vicar of Christ but the truth is, being related to someone has literally NOTHING to do with whether they teach the truth or not. It only increases the chances that there might be confirmation bias working within us.

[Azrael]

I’m currently studying Judaism.

[Palerider]

I’m currently studying Judaism.

A commendable pursuit.

Are you studying soley to increase knowledge or do you pursue becoming Jewish on a religious level?

[Azrael]

I’m currently studying Judaism.

A commendable pursuit.

Are you studying soley to increase knowledge or do you pursue becoming Jewish on a religious level?

Oh I’m an Ashkenzai Jew. I was born into a Catholic family though, raised ‘Lutheran’ (not literally) by my mother as much as possible, then joined the LDS Church at age 29. It was through my experience with the LDS that I discovered my Jewish linage in my namesake.

I believe Christ walked the Earth, fulfilled the old laws, preached as a prophet, began his ministry, introduced his Gospel, then was crucified. I believe he was resurrected after three days in that timeline. I also believe during that three days he experienced a great many things that converted him from the man who was innocent and divine, and then murdered, to the man who will return to harvest the Earth.

I believe these are indeed the last days, and that Christ walks the Earth today, born as a man, and is in the process of fulfilling some Torah/OT prophecy concerning Messiah, preparing to announce himself as The 2nd Coming at some point. Now this last bit is based on some personal belief and not a teaching of any church I’ve been a member of.

Concerning Judaism, it is my birthright. I’m of King David’s line literally. I’m learning the details on the fly for great purpose.

[Palerider]

I believe these are indeed the last days, and that Christ walks the Earth today, born as a man, and is in the process of fulfilling some Torah/OT prophecy concerning Messiah, preparing to announce himself as The 2nd Coming at some point.

Yeah, there is just no scriptural support for this whatsoever. Just the opposite as a matter of fact.

All of the true scriptures indicate that Christ ascended in his resurrected and immortal body to sit on the right hand of God until the actual time of his 2nd Coming. Therefore it would be impossible that he would be born again of man.

Speaking of false Christ's however the Savior said specifically in Matt. 24: 25-27

"Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

So, as you can see, when Christ comes again there will be no doubt as to what is occurring or who it is. Everyone will see Him at one time. Anyone who tries to tell you that Christ is already here and he's out in the desert (of Utah) or in some hidden chamber (false temple) or that this person himself is Christ, you may know they are full of crap.

All scriptural support is that Christ currently sits beside the Father "until the Father makes (his) enemies His footstool." Mark 24:36

Sorry to disappoint you if you truly thought he was already here or.....

that you might actually be him?

[Azrael]

I believe these are indeed the last days, and that Christ walks the Earth today, born as a man, and is in the process of fulfilling some Torah/OT prophecy concerning Messiah, preparing to announce himself as The 2nd Coming at some point.

Yeah, there is just no scriptural support for this whatsoever. Just the opposite as a matter of fact.

All of the true scriptures indicate that Christ ascended in his resurrected and immortal body to sit on the right hand of God until the actual time of his 2nd Coming. Therefore it would be impossible that he would be born again of man.

Where was he during the three days between his murder and his resurrection?

Do you claim to know what he was doing for those three days?

Speaking of false Christ's however the Savior said specifically in Matt. 24: 25-27

"Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

So, as you can see, when Christ comes again there will be no doubt as to what is occurring or who it is. Everyone will see Him at one time. Anyone who tries to tell you that Christ is already here and he's out in the desert (of Utah) or in some hidden chamber (false temple) or that this person himself is Christ, you may know they are full of crap.

All scriptural support is that Christ currently sits beside the Father "until the Father makes (his) enemies His footstool." Mark 24:36

Sorry to disappoint you if you truly thought he was already here or.....

that you might actually be him?

The prophecy about the lighting could be concerning a coronal mass ejection which we are long overdue for.

If you took that scripture as if Christ will appear out of a lightning bolt as big as half the planet.... Sounds like somehing Stan Lee would have cooked up.

[Azrael]

If I were He, and you were to know for certain, the Holy Ghost would touch you deeply as you read these words.

[Palerider]

Where was he during the three days between his murder and his resurrection?

Do you claim to know what he was doing for those three days?

Where he was for the time period between his death and resurrection is irrelevant to the question at hand.

But since you have asked, the scriptures indicate the following:

Spoken to the thief on the cross next to him

Luke 23:43

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

1 Peter 3:18-20

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah...."

Do you have any scriptural support that he was anywhere else?

Not that it matters because we are talking about his state of being AFTER the resurrection, not before.

[Palerider]

If I were He, and you were to know for certain, the Holy Ghost would touch you deeply as you read these words.

Well, that solves that. No touching while reading.

[Azrael]

Where was he during the three days between his murder and his resurrection?

Do you claim to know what he was doing for those three days?

Where he was for the time period between his death and resurrection is irrelevant to the question at hand.

But since you have asked, the scriptures indicate the following:

Spoken to the thief on the cross next to him

Luke 23:43

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

1 Peter 3:18-20

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah...."

Do you have any scriptural support that he was anywhere else?

Not that it matters because we are talking about his state of being AFTER the resurrection, not before.

I consider your analysis small and closed minded.

[Azrael]

If I were He, and you were to know for certain, the Holy Ghost would touch you deeply as you read these words.

Well, that solves that. No touching while reading.

Perfect.

[Palerider]

Where was he during the three days between his murder and his resurrection?

Do you claim to know what he was doing for those three days?

Where he was for the time period between his death and resurrection is irrelevant to the question at hand.

But since you have asked, the scriptures indicate the following:

Spoken to the thief on the cross next to him

Luke 23:43

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

1 Peter 3:18-20

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah...."

Do you have any scriptural support that he was anywhere else?

Not that it matters because we are talking about his state of being AFTER the resurrection, not before.

I consider your analysis small and closed minded.

Too bad for you I suppose because this is exactly what Joseph Smith taught and is still taught today by the LDS church.

Perhaps in your opinion, this was the beginning of Joseph's fall?

[Azrael]

Where he was for the time period between his death and resurrection is irrelevant to the question at hand.

But since you have asked, the scriptures indicate the following:

Spoken to the thief on the cross next to him

Luke 23:43

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

1 Peter 3:18-20

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah...."

Do you have any scriptural support that he was anywhere else?

Not that it matters because we are talking about his state of being AFTER the resurrection, not before.

I consider your analysis small and closed minded.

Too bad for you I suppose because this is exactly what Joseph Smith taught and is still taught today by the LDS church.

Perhaps in your opinion, this was the beginning of Joseph's fall?

I am considering the scripture itself, not Smith’s interpretation. He was just a prophet, not Messiah or Father.

[Palerider]

I am considering the scripture itself, not Smith’s interpretation. He was just a prophet, not Messiah or Father.

So one minute you paint Smith in grandiose and marvelous strokes and the next he's just a "prophet" who can be taken or left without intrepidation. A buzzing gnat.

Please feel free to broaden our horizons on the topic of where Christ was during the time between his death and resurrection.

Make sure it is supported by scripture otherwise we would have to put anything you say in exactly the same category as you have put Joseph Smith as offering only an interpretation or opininon, not to be taken seriously.