on being outside

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Fifi de la Vergne
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on being outside

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:24 am

My eldest son is getting married in the temple in a couple of weeks, and although I resigned myself to that probability when he left on his mission, I've found myself angrier and more triggered by church stuff than I have been for a long time. I have this foreboding that one of the changes they will announce soon is rescinding the ban on making couples wait a year to be sealed who don't initially marry in the temple. It's a change we all know is long overdue, but somehow if/when it comes it will only serve to highlight the unnecessary pain it caused every parent who had to wait outside their own child's wedding.

I carried that baby and birthed him. Tended him night and day, comforted and nursed him, worried over every step he took as he grew. I anguished with him over his struggles, encouraged him when he faltered and rejoiced with him when he triumphed. And because I won't lie about my belief in this church, they will close the door in my face when he goes in to be married. Maybe it's on me for being stubborn, but everyone has to make their own choices and I couldn't live with that compromise.

I am committed to supporting my son and his fiancee (who is a lovely, sweet girl) 100%. The day will be all about them and I will show a joyful countenance. I guess I'm venting here to keep it from spilling out somewhere else where it would hurt them.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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moksha
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Re: on being outside

Post by moksha » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:08 am

Wish children in this circumstance would opt for a non-Temple wedding so their loved ones could attend the wedding, then go to the Temple after the punitive waiting period is up.

The hurt that exclusionary policy creates is immense. If only Mormon leaders could empathetically imagine themselves in other's shoes, they too would come to that realization.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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wtfluff
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Re: on being outside

Post by wtfluff » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:19 am

What helped me: I missed a 5-minute polygamist ceremony on the inside, focused on enjoying the rest of the day, and it turned out wonderful.

Are they doing a ring ceremony or anything like that?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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glass shelf
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Re: on being outside

Post by glass shelf » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:51 am

It is unfair and needlessly painful.

I hope the rest of the day is lovely.

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Corsair
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Re: on being outside

Post by Corsair » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:38 am

Part of the emotional pain from being outside the temple is the profound condescension of the LDS believers who can and will walk in that door. The question that is always implied, if not openly asked is this: Why don't you have a temple recommend? The question is posed as an accusation, not with any sympathy. You are treated as a child at best, and as a disappointment and sad cautionary tale at worst.

I think Wtfluff has the right idea:
wtfluff wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:19 am
What helped me: I missed a 5-minute polygamist ceremony on the inside, focused on enjoying the rest of the day, and it turned out wonderful.
Building on this, any of those pointed questions should be answered as if the institutional LDS church is the bad guy:

"Why don't you have a temple recommend?"
"Because the church refused to give one to me."

"Why aren't you attending the sealing?"
"Because the church refused to let me in."

Don't just say that you don't believe. Atheists, Jews, Muslims, and Mormons are all welcome to attend any Catholic wedding. It's only Mormons that exclude people from weddings. Fifi, Your right to see your son take this step is firmaly encapsulated in your position as his mother:
Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:24 am
I carried that baby and birthed him. Tended him night and day, comforted and nursed him, worried over every step he took as he grew. I anguished with him over his struggles, encouraged him when he faltered and rejoiced with him when he triumphed
The LDS church is definitely acting as the bad guy here. They are the ones who initiated this emotional violence against you and their hypocrisy is laid bare in so many ways.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: on being outside

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:16 pm

I am so sorry you have to go through this. I can’t imagine how it feels – my son will get baptized this year and I get nauseated every time I think about it. Just as with the sealing, I know it isn’t real, I know it doesn’t matter; reframing it helps, but it’s emotional abandonment.

My grandparents (nevermos) were excluded from my parents wedding/sealing. Thirty years later I excluded my grandparents again when I got married. Now they’ve passed on, and what I wouldn’t give to sit down with my grandmother and a cup of her instant Folgers crystals. I know the thought of the church abandoning their hard stance on temple marriage angers my parents because it negates the pain everyone went through. For what it’s worth, I’ve cried today thinking of your pain, my grandparent’s pain, the pain this causes to people in times of what should be celebration.

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jfro18
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Re: on being outside

Post by jfro18 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:13 pm

I'm so sorry -- please vent away here as you need to because it does help sometimes to type it out to avoid saying it out loud later.

I think about this all the time -- my kid is right now not going to church as I try to work things out with DW, but I know that it's not going away and I have no idea how to process it all... so at some point soon it's going to be time for him to be baptized, priesthood, missions, etc.

But please vent away here and don't think for a second you have done anything wrong -- you made your choice and unfortunately the unhealthy policies of the church are punishing you for it. If that's not proof of what a harmful organization this is, I don't know what is.

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deacon blues
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Re: on being outside

Post by deacon blues » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:14 pm

It's a Church thing that as I understand it, started with Joseph F. Smith around a hundred years ago. It's interesting that JFS testified to Congress that he didn't receive visions and revelations. I wonder what Pres. Nelson would say today if testifying before Congress. It's a Church thing not a God thing, and it pisses me off too.
God is Love. God is Truth

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: on being outside

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:23 pm

I am several years (I hope) away from any temple wedding but have resigned myself to the likelihood of being outside. I am sure it will be more difficult if it gets closer.

Good luck on your day of pain.

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Angel
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Re: on being outside

Post by Angel » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:47 pm

My parents did not attend my temple marriage (they were never members), and now I might not attend my children's marriage. I guess you could see it as part of letting go, letting them start a new life without you.

Words over an alter and a pretty dress are not what create a marriage.

Marriage is the product of years together - in sickness and in health, poorer and richer, and happiness and sorry - this is what marriage is made of, not some little ceremony.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Newme
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Re: on being outside

Post by Newme » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:38 pm

Lots of good comments that have helped me too.

I, too, am often going along fine in not thinking too much about things - and then something happens to remind me of how hurtful it can be. I suppose part of it is my own perspective and more to heal, but part of it is injustice like this. It’s wrong for church leaders to manipulate people by trying to withhold things - like enjoying a family wedding - in order to control them. Cult mentality. Joseph Smith allowed non-members to sealings and didn’t charge tithe$ for temple entrance.

If I were you, I’d get together with others (including kids) who are also rejected entrance - and have your own fun time in the mean-time. Even Christ didn’t turn CHILDREN away. Our church has some good aspects - but some really evil, anti-Christ aspects also.

I hope the best for you. Christ would have been kicked out - he was. He was dark-skinned, and outwardly questioned religious leaders but he was treated real bad. Integrity costs - but you’d think in the church of Jesus Christ that integrity would be encouraged not punished.

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blazerb
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Re: on being outside

Post by blazerb » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:40 pm

Take care. I expect to be in this situation. As you said, the really awful part is that the policy will almost certainly be changed at some point. A coworker told me about his relatives showing up to a sealing. They weren't Mormon and did not know that they would not be able to go inside. It was embarrassing for them. These sorts of events are going to put pressure on the church to change.

misterfake371
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Re: on being outside

Post by misterfake371 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:13 pm

I basically lie in the TR interviews, and I have for years, and I've gotten comfortable with it. Abraham lied when he said that Sarah was his sister, not his wife. If Abraham can lie and feel fine about himself, I can too.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm taking the path of least resistance by staying in the Church. Other times I feel like God wants me to stay. I love the church in a lot of ways and what God has done for my life. At the same time, I sympathize with you and I hope you find a way to have a good day when your son is married.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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DPRoberts
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Re: on being outside

Post by DPRoberts » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:09 pm

Not to steal your thunder but rather to put an exclamation point on the OP, Starbucks Mom made the same point.
https://newordermormon.net/viewtopic.p ... ter#p35402

Shame on these self-important bureaucrats for putting the organization ahead of families. Nobody has the right to judge you unworthy, Fifi.

Edited to fix the hyperlink.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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StarbucksMom
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Re: on being outside

Post by StarbucksMom » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:27 pm

Fifi, I am really sorry. Will they have a ring ceremony you can particpate in?

I like all the comments so far. I was surprisinglly kind of startled by Corsair’s comments about other faiths being welcomed at other religious weddings. I mean, duh, but he put it so well. The Mormons are the ONLY church that exclude loved ones from weddings. One of the most un-Christ-like things any church could ever do. The more I think about it these days, it makes me feel physically ill that they want to parade around being solely called “The Church of Christ” or however Russ says it now. We’re not actually allowed to say LDS, right? Whatever they call themselves, the top leadership does way more to contradict Jesus’ teachings than emulate them. HOW THE HELL IS IT OK TO SAY PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR MALLS, 6k SALARIES, AND LAND IN FLORIDA and WORSHIP A CHILD-PEDOPHILE FOUNDING “PROPHET” to go to a wedding????

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: on being outside

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:19 pm

I'm returning and reporting.

TL;DR -- it was a lovely day.

I didn't go to the temple to wait outside. I spent the time with some other family members who also couldn't be in the temple and we reminisced about other weddings we've been to, and basically agreed that we liked non-mormon weddings better. :)

When we did get to the temple, we still ended up waiting outside for awhile, but with everyone else since the newlyweds were taking forever to exit. I was greeted enthusiastically by former ward members and family who had been inside and so (whatever they thought privately) I didn't feel judged or like an outsider, which I had been dreading.

These darn kids are SO young; it's been a weight on my heart, and yet -- they were so happy and so beautiful together. I dare to hope that this will be a successful marriage in spite of their youth and inexperience and complete devotion to their religion.

I was very surprised to have a wonderful time at the reception -- my MIL has 20 grandchildren and most of them came, and I am on really good terms with most of them, so it was great to be together. We talked, laughed, and by the end of the evening everyone was up and dancing uninhibitedly, especially my 2-year-old great-niece who must have had a complete meltdown before she got home to bed because she was really tearing up the dance floor.

When they cut the cake, I experienced everything that I would have felt when they said their vows. They played "their" song and rather than the humorous smooshing that it usually is, it was very tender and almost reverent. My daughter and I held each other and cried.

I'm so darned glad for this community. I have really appreciated your support because I was so sad and anxious anticipating this. I still find the practice of excluding important family and friends from the ceremony barbaric, but I wanted to share with you that I had a truly lovely day, and that I'm at peace with it.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Newme
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Re: on being outside

Post by Newme » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:00 pm

Fifi,
I’m so happy for you that it was a good experience and that you felt a sense of connection to others in your similar situation as well as to family generally.

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wtfluff
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Re: on being outside

Post by wtfluff » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:21 pm

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:19 pm
... I was so sad and anxious anticipating this. I still find the practice of excluding important family and friends from the ceremony barbaric, but I wanted to share with you that I had a truly lovely day, and that I'm at peace with it.
Hip, hip, HOORAY!!!
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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