The sacrament and baptism

[Mormon 8]

OK, so it's obvious the church isn't what it claims to be given all of the information that has surfaced on the character of Joseph Smith and how the church is basically nothing more than a massively wealthy Babylonian real-estate corporation masquerading as a religion and so where does this leave baptism and the sacrament and the authority to administer them?

[RubinHighlander]

This depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. Many here wanted somewhere to land, post LDS church faith crisis. If you keep applying critical thinking to all other religions, to the old and new testaments and so on, you quickly conclude that all religions were inventions of tribalism. The invention of God, as an unseen entity that only a few holy men and prophets claim to see. God, some being who is like Santa Clause to watch your every move, this is the power of fear and guilt that helped homo sapiens evolve into groups larger than a dozen, where trust/moral behavior could still be established via tribalism and probably the invention that gave sapiens the dominance to take over all other hominid groups.

Tribalism runs deep in our genetics. You see it in religion, politics, nationalism, conspiracy theorists, veganism, bigotry, etc., and even things like those that still believe the Earth is flat. In another thread we were just discussing the problems with religion, talking to God and how you can know if something is true by praying about it...a method used over and over again by nearly every religion on the planet that convinces millions of humans that their god and their religion are the one true way, that they have found the answers without a shadow of doubt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUvC9s4VYA

So Sacrament and Baptism? Just a couple of tools or ceremonies that try to make a religion more special than other religions.

IMO

[Mormon 8]

An interesting take, thanks for your input.

[Palerider]

From a Christian perspective I think the sacrament or the Lord's supper is encouraged/ expected when viewed from the Biblical scriptures. "This do in remembrance of me."
It's obvious that no "religion" has the current authority to claim exclusivity in the performance of that rite. Only that the pattern shown was intended to continue as directed by the Savior.

The fact that the pattern has been changed or corrupted by the LDS religion is an obvious sign that the church is not true. Water was never considered acceptable as a replacement for the fruit of the vine that represents the sacred blood spilled on behalf of mankind.

D&C 27:2 is nothing more than a revelation of convenience fabricated to save Joseph Smith the embarrassment of not possessing any wine for the ordinance.

As far as baptism is concerned, it does appear to be a required ordinance in the sense that it is mentioned that way in the Biblical scriptures. However at the same time it is seen that the "baptism of the Spirit" is the more critical of the two baptisms and the more necessary/useful to the process of conversion. When reading of the Savior's conversation with Nicodemus, the baptism of the Spirit is given the greater weight of necessity and there are a number of instances in the New Testament where the Holy Ghost came upon converts before they were baptized. This water baptism is an outward acceptance of Christ and his Messiahship but the critical change of the inner man can only be accomplished by the influence of the Holy Ghost.
Given the state of the Christian churches on Earth today which baptism would/should we consider essential to salvation?

[Mormon 8]

From a Christian perspective I think the sacrament or the Lord's supper is encouraged/ expected when viewed from the Biblical scriptures. "This do in remembrance of me."
It's obvious that no "religion" has the current authority to claim exclusivity in the performance of that rite. Only that the pattern shown was intended to continue as directed by the Savior.

The fact that the pattern has been changed or corrupted by the LDS religion is an obvious sign that the church is not true. Water was never considered acceptable as a replacement for the fruit of the vine that represents the sacred blood spilled on behalf of mankind.

D&C 27:2 is nothing more than a revelation of convenience fabricated to save Joseph Smith the embarrassment of not possessing any wine for the ordinance.

As far as baptism is concerned, it does appear to be a required ordinance in the sense that it is mentioned that way in the Biblical scriptures. However at the same time it is seen that the "baptism of the Spirit" is the more critical of the two baptisms and the more necessary/useful to the process of conversion. When reading of the Savior's conversation with Nicodemus, the baptism of the Spirit is given the greater weight of necessity and there are a number of instances in the New Testament where the Holy Ghost came upon converts before they were baptized. This water baptism is an outward acceptance of Christ and his Messiahship but the critical change of the inner man can only be accomplished by the influence of the Holy Ghost.
Given the state of the Christian churches on Earth today which baptism would/should we consider essential to salvation?

Thanks for this post, it gave me a lot to think about and consider.