RFM: First Vision Accounts & Saints Book.

[Just This Guy]

RFM's latest podcast talks about how the Saints book tries to weave together the various accounts of the first vision, while downplaying the contradictions between the accounts.

https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/07/rad ... s-history/

He goes into great detail on how they attempt to downplay the contradiction with when JSj figured out that no church was true.

However, he completely missed another contradiction, One that Saints completely ignored as well. JSj's age!

In the 1982 version, JS states he first became interested in religion at the age of 12, and he finally goes to pray when he is 16.

...and while in <​the​> attitude of calling upon the Lord <​in the 16th year of my age​> a piller of fire light...

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... transcript

However, The 1835 and 1838 versions as well as various 2ndard sources say JS was 15.

I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father’s family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith...

JS History 1:7.

[jfro18]

I listened to this the other day and for a while I thought it was getting too deep into the details, but it really is an amazing thing that apologists did with Saints to touch on all of the different accounts while making it look to the reader as if it really paints one consistent narrative.

And I particularly love the end of the podcast where RFM talks about how Saints really hits Joseph for "trying" to record the events in the 1832 account to downplay its significance as well as continuing the idea that Joseph was too unintelligent to record an event in 1832.

Definitely worth the listen even if it feels like there are too many details flying around at points.

It makes me want to go back and update those chapters of my Saints review to add in some of those details!

[dogbite]

However, The 1835 and 1838 versions as well as various 2ndard sources say JS was 15.

I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father’s family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith...

JS History 1:7.

This usage means he was 14. Your 15th year starts when you turn 14.

[2bizE]

There are a number of ways of saying someone is 14 years of age:
1) 14 years of age
2) in the 15th year of life
3) several months before your 15th birthday

[græy]

I started typing up a post about this episode yesterday at work, but never had time to finish it.

I agree with jfro18, in that I like how RFM shows the lengths church historians went to show they were taking into account ALL the sources while simultaneously downplaying everything that didn't point to the conclusion they want you to arrive at.

I would love a similar episode focused on his treasure seeking. I think there is even greater evidence of modern attempts at hiding information in that realm.

The saints book goes so far as to say "Joseph had heard of stories of guardian spirits and buried treasure and was worried that his experience with Moroni would sounds similar to those." (That is paraphrased, not an actual quote from the book.)

How is that honest!? HE WAS THE ONE TELLING THOSE STORIES! He used those stories to defraud people out of their money!!

There is more, but it is late, and I'm typing on my phone. Good night.