Book of Abraham source material -Jasher unavailable until 1840...

[jfro18]

So Kwaku did a video on the Book of Abraham which has stirred up a lot of discussion by both RFM's latest podcast (https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... -deceiver/) and also on Kwaku's video as well.

There's a cool thread on the r/mormon sub that talks about Jasher a bit, because the earliest English translation we can find is 1840 in NY... and the part in the Book of Abraham that really leans heavily into Jasher's material (Abraham and the alter) was written likely in 1835. That thread is at https://old.reddit.com/r/mormon/comment ... raham_and/

So the author of the r/mormon thread highlights that Adam Clarke actually wrote about this in his Bible commentary, which we know Joseph Smith used for the JST Bible:

"Be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace - This was an ancient mode of punishment among the Chaldeans, if we may credit the tradition that Abram was cast into such a fire by this idolatrous people because he would not worship their idols."

But the dating on Jasher does put into question Joseph knowing about the sacrifice from Jasher... but then you see Adam Clarke talk about it which is something I hadn't previously heard.

Just wondering if anyone else ran into that or cares about that kind of detail. It's interesting to talk about, although my favorite line from Kwaku's video is this: "If the Book of Abraham was translated exactly by the papyri we have, it would not be interesting, would it? It would just mean Joseph translated something." No, it would mean Joseph Smith was a prophet."

No... that would make him a prophet.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

There is more than one source thought to be influential on the BOA content. IIRC this is from Grant Palmer's book.

Ch 1 Josephus

Ch 2 4 5 king james bible

Ch 3 thomas dicks philosophy  of a future state

Thomas Taylor theology of plato - facsimiles

Also a bunch is thought to come from a 19th century book about the Masons that Joseph or Hyrum had access to (I forget the title). We had a guy here on NOM that was working on a book about it. Fascinating parallels.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

There is more than one source thought to be influential on the BOA content. IIRC this is from Grant Palmer's book.

Ch 1 Josephus

Ch 2 4 5 king james bible

Ch 3 thomas dicks philosophy  of a future state

Thomas Taylor theology of plato - facsimiles

Also a bunch is thought to come from a 19th century book about the Masons that Joseph or Hyrum had access to (I forget the title). We had a guy here on NOM that was working on a book about it. Fascinating parallels.

Found it I think: "Antiquities of Freemasonry" is the title.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Th ... oiAAAAMAAJ

[Hagoth]

"Antiquities of Freemasonry" is the title.

Here are some bulletpoints I gathered from that book:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WqN ... sp=sharing

[jfro18]

"Antiquities of Freemasonry" is the title.

Here are some bulletpoints I gathered from that book:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WqN ... sp=sharing

I remember this from before - this is definitely good and apparently the book had an 1823 and 1843 printing so it can't be said that Joseph couldn't have seen it until after the BoA was published.

[Hagoth]

"Be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace - This was an ancient mode of punishment among the Chaldeans, if we may credit the tradition that Abram was cast into such a fire by this idolatrous people because he would not worship their idols."

Don't forget that the story of people getting cast into a fire for failure to worship idols is also found in the book of Daniel. I'm not sure how well this applies to the BoA, though. Joseph has Abraham being sacrificed on a couch because that's how he was interpreting the picture he was looking at. It could just be that he had a series of pictures that he was determined to make into a story about Abraham. He didn't know anything about Egyptian embalming scenes and incorrectly misinterpreted the position of the mummy's legs as struggling (a mistake that LDS apologists continue to make) and decided that if the story was going to be about Abraham this must be a picture of Abraham getting mistreated by some Egyptian priests, all you have to do is (literally) fill in the missing blanks.

[jfro18]

Don't forget that the story of people getting cast into a fire for failure to worship idols is also found in the book of Daniel. I'm not sure how well this applies to the BoA, though. Joseph has Abraham being sacrificed on a couch because that's how he was interpreting the picture he was looking at.

Clearly the Babylon Bee got their inspiration for today's (satirical) article from the Book of Abraham: "Senator Ben Sasse Offered One Last Chance To Bow To Towering Trump Statue Before Being Thrown Into Fiery Furnace" https://babylonbee.com/news/senator-ben ... ry-furnace

I know it's a political article even if satirical, but it fits this topic, the politics are irrelevant here, and the Babylon Bee makes fun of everyone.

[Hagoth]

According to Wikipedia, the first English translation of the Book of Jasher was in 1751, and again in 1829. The first publisher was jailed for perpetrating a fraud. The second publisher made up new material and added it to the book. I guess the question is what is meant by "unavailable." If it existed in England it certainly could have been shipped over and, as many books were, reprinted locally without copyright. Or Joseph could have just had access to a copy that was printed in England.

Fortunately for everyone, the church has weighted in on this issue. Footnote 46 of the Book of Abraham essay says, "Some of these extrabiblical elements were available to Joseph Smith through the books of Jasher and Josephus. Joseph Smith was aware of these books, but it is unknown whether he utilized them."

Two simple choices:

1) He did utilized them.

2) He was familiar with them but rather than using the information he got from them, he used the same information that he got through a supernatural source.

There is no option that he was unaware of them and could have gotten information purely from a supernatural source. The church has ruled that out in their essay.

Regardless of apologetic claims that Jasher was unavailable to Joseph Smith, the apologists who make those claims do not only need to convince the critics, they also need to convince the church leaders and the authors responsible for an official church publication.

[jfro18]

According to Wikipedia, the first English translation of the Book of Jasher was in 1751, and again in 1829. The first publisher was jailed for perpetrating a fraud. The second publisher made up new material and added it to the book. I guess the question is what is meant by "unavailable." If it existed in England it certainly could have been shipped over and, as many books were, reprinted locally without copyright. Or Joseph could have just had access to a copy that was printed in England.

Yeah I was trying to figure that out too because one of the articles I read implied that the 1829 publication was a completely different book which makes no sense, but I didn't read it so i can't speak to that.

Regardless of apologetic claims that Jasher was unavailable to Joseph Smith, the apologists who make those claims do not only need to convince the critics, they also need to convince the church leaders and the authors responsible for an official church publication.

And yet the apologists will continue to brush right past the fact that the church had to admit in its own essay that Joseph had access to them, and it had to really pain them to jot that down in the footnotes.