the Dark Night of the Soul

[Angel]

so... my TBM DH is cracking... it is such a hard thing...

a little from a note he just sent:

"This whole Universe is a lie: God is either a lie or a liar, and this Universe is a sadistic puppet-show, where no truth can be found and that offers nothing but a temporary, painful, and meaningless existence; we are left in the midst of a world of selfish people all wearing smiling masks and popping chemicals. We are all lying to ourselves to try to find some reason for happiness, and to convince ourselves that we have each found some truth to help us believe there is some point. You have helped me to finally stop lying to myself and face the truth that I have known all along, that this is all pointless. But I have always wanted my kids to hope for more, which is why I have ignored for them what I know. Every parent wants more for their kids than for themselves."

I have suggested a UU church as a healthy place for community, and have sent resources of people talking about the dark night of the soul... it is so hard, and I am struggling to support him. I feel like I am finally getting myself to a healthy and happy place, but now my happiness probably feels like a slap in his face because he is not there...

so, think back to your dark night, what would have helped you the most? what would be good for kids? I suggested allowing everyone to choose their activities for Sunday - the kids have all been given callings to try to force them to stay at church like conducting the music, bring the sacrament bread, leading the youth programs etc. etc. and people at church will guilt trip them if they are not there every Sunday... two are in institute... ugh... trying to convince DH of the great school programs they are in, of alternative local spiritual groups, that things are not horrible - that there is some really beautiful stuff on the other side of a faith transition...

help!

[Linked]

so... my TBM DH is cracking... it is such a hard thing...

a little from a note he just sent:

"This whole Universe is a lie: God is either a lie or a liar, and this Universe is a sadistic puppet-show, where no truth can be found and that offers nothing but a temporary, painful, and meaningless existence; we are left in the midst of a world of selfish people all wearing smiling masks and popping chemicals. We are all lying to ourselves to try to find some reason for happiness, and to convince ourselves that we have each found some truth to help us believe there is some point. You have helped me to finally stop lying to myself and face the truth that I have known all along, that this is all pointless. But I have always wanted my kids to hope for more, which is why I have ignored for them what I know. Every parent wants more for their kids than for themselves."

I have suggested a UU church as a healthy place for community, and have sent resources of people talking about the dark night of the soul... it is so hard, and I am struggling to support him. I feel like I am finally getting myself to a healthy and happy place, but now my happiness probably feels like a slap in his face because he is not there...

so, think back to your dark night, what would have helped you the most? what would be good for kids? I suggested allowing everyone to choose their activities for Sunday - the kids have all been given callings to try to force them to stay at church like conducting the music, bring the sacrament bread, leading the youth programs etc. etc. and people at church will guilt trip them if they are not there every Sunday... two are in institute... ugh... trying to convince DH of the great school programs they are in, of alternative local spiritual groups, that things are not horrible - that there is some really beautiful stuff on the other side of a faith transition...

help!

When I was in my dark night I think it would have helped to know I had someone I could talk to about it. Someone that I could selfishly dump my breakthroughs and pains on. Someone who would validate my feelings. Basically NOM. I'm not sure if you can be all of that for DH, as you have a whole relationship to manage, but just having someone would have been great.

As for your kids, I like your idea of letting them do what they choose. At this point it is hard to know what will push them further in and away from you. Are you interested in a UU church?

Your excerpt from his note sounds like he is hurting and struggling to find a purpose without the purpose the church gave him. I really liked the idea of absurdism someone posted about here (Absurdism basically says that Nihlism is correct in that there is no real purpose, but that doesn't mean we have to give up hope because as humans we require purpose. So accept the absurdity of that position and pick your purpose and live wholeheartedly.) After shedding my mormon filter I really enjoyed philosophy and movies and books at a new level where I didn't have to shove it into the mormon paradigm. Yuval Harrari's "Sapiens" was good, along with the Youtube channel Crashcourse Philosophy.

Good luck with this transition!

[jfro18]

For me the one thing I wanted was to have someone to talk to, and since I am not in a Mormon-heavy area that just wasn't available.

So I think that maybe the best thing you could do would be to introduce him to groups like this? I know it sounds weird... but that might be a HUGE help.

I was so terrified when I stopped going that I just shut down on that stuff. My sister-in-law stopped going a while after I did and I was *still* too afraid to just call and ask what she was going through. I really regret that.

I guess my one main advice would be to try and give him outlets where he can talk to others who have been through it, so he can see that there's a lot of goodness at the end of the tunnel, and that what he's going through is both normal and expected.

[Random]

Sometimes you have to work through things on your own - and a listening (nonjudgmental) ear is really nice to have.

Letting your kids choose their own level of involvement in the Church is excellent (as long as they are really choosing, and aren't being part of it because they feel guilty if they step away from it).

[Angel]

Usbl post, phone blip.

[Angel]

Thanks so much for the replies. It's so hard, I wanted someone to jump in and take the pain away, or just talk to so much too. You realize there are no answers, there is nothing anyone can do to put things back again, realize you're on your own with no real guidance for anything... it is scary until you get your feet underneath you again. I'm going to try to get him connected with one of his brothers who left, hopefully that will be a support for him. I'll suggest this place to him too, who knows... ugh, seeing him go through it is bringing it all back for me too. I'm going to try to be strong. There is hope, purpose, meaning - just have to find your purpose.

[moksha]

I have suggested a UU church as a healthy place for community, ...

No matter what you decide, it would be enriching for the family to see what others believe and how they worship.

[hmb]

I felt liberated when I left. Big relief at the lack of guilt. Nevertheless, I still feel there is no purpose. I still feel cheated from an eternal afterlife in the telestial or terrestrial heaven. I was never interested in the Celestial Kingdom. It always felt too sterile and temple-like. Boring. Now I believe death is the great equalizer, regardless of the life you live. It seems unfair and I am still bitter. I envy those who seem to have purpose. I hope your DH finds purpose. I just keep busy and try to enjoy what I can with my time.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Existential crisis is a stressful time. I prefer to call it that rather than a faith crisis because for some, there is more loss than just the church narrative. Your whole concept of reality is in question.

[Hagoth]

I have suggested a UU church as a healthy place for community, ...

No matter what you decide, it would be enriching for the family to see what others believe and how they worship.

Are you in Utah? The Sandy UU has a transition group for faith-crisis Mormons.

[Angel]

I have suggested a UU church as a healthy place for community, ...

No matter what you decide, it would be enriching for the family to see what others believe and how they worship.

So today I did attend a UU service, which I very much appreciated. One kid stayed home, the rest attended TSCC (missionary farewell talks by DD's friends) I loved the UU service, had a good talk with everyone at home afterwards about it, and I think will be able to talk them all into joining me there in a bit.

I felt liberated when I left. Big relief at the lack of guilt. Nevertheless, I still feel there is no purpose. I still feel cheated from an eternal afterlife in the telestial or terrestrial heaven. I was never interested in the Celestial Kingdom. It always felt too sterile and temple-like. Boring. Now I believe death is the great equalizer, regardless of the life you live. It seems unfair and I am still bitter. I envy those who seem to have purpose. I hope your DH finds purpose. I just keep busy and try to enjoy what I can with my time.

If there is only one life to live, there is something precious found within scarcity.

Trying to find the quote from today's UU service -

“We are the local embodiment of a Cosmos grown to self-awareness. We have begun to contemplate our origins: starstuff pondering the stars; organized assemblages of ten billion billion billion atoms considering the evolution of atoms; tracing the long journey by which, here at least, consciousness arose. Our loyalties are to the species and the planet. We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring.”

― Carl Sagan, Cosmos

Conservation of matter, conservation of energy, conservation of intelligence? Who knows? There is purpose in feeling connected to everything that currently exists though.

[Angel]

Existential crisis is a stressful time. I prefer to call it that rather than a faith crisis because for some, there is more loss than just the church narrative. Your whole concept of reality is in question.

"Existential crisis" is a better description of it.

Yes...

more excerpts from notes going between me an my poor DH...

"...my spiritual progression as fake as
anything in this world; just hoping that if I fake it, then the kids might find
something to hope for, in the way that the thought of a jolly red elf stopping
by gets kids excited and looking forward to Christmas. I've read the stages of
faith, but again, don't really have any. Anything we think we see, hear, or
"know" is really false, there is no knowing the truth, aside from the Dead
Milkman's song about life....

.... I just wanted the kid's to have something to believe in..."

yesterday it was pretty bad... out on the back porch, DH hitting posts - "this isn't real, nothing is real..."... quite an intense little foray in bed... today was better...

I guess it just takes a little time - to enjoy good weather outside, enjoy good food (I cooked everyone a really good Sunday breakfast this morning), to see everyone from other belief systems being happy and getting by just fine ....

it just takes time.

[Keewon]

"...my spiritual progression as fake as
anything in this world; just hoping that if I fake it, then the kids might find
something to hope for, in the way that the thought of a jolly red elf stopping
by gets kids excited and looking forward to Christmas. I've read the stages of
faith, but again, don't really have any. Anything we think we see, hear, or
"know" is really false, there is no knowing the truth, aside from the Dead
Milkman's song about life....

.... I just wanted the kid's to have something to believe in..."

This thread has moved me as much as anything I've read in a long time. I, and most of us here, understand the disappointment and disconnect that comes from learning that much of what we grew up believing is not real. One thing I have earnestly come to believe since then, however, is that the Universe is most definitely not meaningless. There is beauty, mystery and awe there sufficient for many lifetimes.

And there is also a moral Universe- there is right and wrong, good and bad, lives well lived and not well lived. And the fact that our time on earth is limited doesn't detract from this in any way. In fact, it just makes it all the more critical that we take our actions and choices seriously, and follow the best information available- it's the only chance we get.

Another thing I have come to believe is that the time I spent believing the church stories wasn't necessarily time wasted. I learned many life lessons on my mission, and many moral lessons then and since. There are many wrong turns a person can take, in youth and later in life, and believing (as I did from the BofM) that the prime goal of a life well lived is coming to learn the "pure love of Christ" -- well, one can do worse.

But I get the feeling of loss, sadness and uncertainty about what comes next, especially when it comes to the legacy you leave your children. It takes awhile to find one's feet. That, I believe, is one reason people avoid facing the truth -- facing the uncertainty about what comes next is too painful. Especially if you were raised to believe that goodness and truth are only found in the church of Christ.

You have a lot of your plate! I wish you the best.

[Not Buying It]

God is either a lie or a liar, and this Universe is a sadistic puppet-show, where no truth can be found and that offers nothing but a temporary, painful, and meaningless existence; we are left in the midst of a world of selfish people all wearing smiling masks and popping chemicals.

This is a false dichotomy. Yes, existence may be temporary, and is often painful, but it is anything but meaningless. This life took on so much more meaning once I decided the Mormon version of the next one was a crock of crap. My time with family here is so much more precious now that I am not sure if I will be with them in the next one, and I have too little of it to waste on the Church’s nonsense.

There is no way to tell him this now probably, but the two options he has outlined aren’t the only ones. Where there is love, existence holds great meaning, even if that existence ends at death. If I die and wink out into oblivion tomorrow, I would consider myself fortunate for all the joy I got to have with my family while I existed.

You know what really is meaningless? A life devoted to the lies and false promises of a conman and the organization that perpetuates his scam. To me, that is a truly meaningless existence.

[Angel]

.... the legacy you leave your children. ...

I'm worried about the kids so much in all of this - they are teenagers which is a hard enough age already. I keep trying to convince myself there is good in the church - and there is, that is why I joined it in the first place. It is hard to tear the kids away - from their friends, from the false security of having some authority figure there to protect and guide them... I had a long talk with the kids again, how part of becoming an adult is becoming your own authority figure - recognizing that no one is perfect, no one has all the answers, there is no secure or safe place anywhere.... also preparing them for college, where they will leave most of their friends behind, have to join a new community, meet new people - a transition into a new spiritual community might be a helpful thing for them so they are more easily able to transition into college.

Part of life is so hard and painful, but no ups without downs, and yes - the lower someone falls, the greater the appreciation there is for the highs.

[Angel]

God is either a lie or a liar, and this Universe is a sadistic puppet-show, where no truth can be found and that offers nothing but a temporary, painful, and meaningless existence; we are left in the midst of a world of selfish people all wearing smiling masks and popping chemicals.

This is a false dichotomy. Yes, existence may be temporary, and is often painful, but it is anything but meaningless. This life took on so much more meaning once I decided the Mormon version of the next one was a crock of crap. My time with family here is so much more precious now that I am not sure if I will be with them in the next one, and I have too little of it to waste on the Church’s nonsense.

There is no way to tell him this now probably, but the two options he has outlined aren’t the only ones. Where there is love, existence holds great meaning, even if that existence ends at death. If I die and wink out into oblivion tomorrow, I would consider myself fortunate for all the joy I got to have with my family while I existed.

You know what really is meaningless? A life devoted to the lies and false promises of a conman and the organization that perpetuates his scam. To me, that is a truly meaningless existence.

I agree. I guess it will just take time, and a lot of TLC... I'm trying to dish out the TLC to that poor grumpy bleeding cactus of a DH of mine.

[Random]

it just takes time.

This is so true. And the processing can be very painful, even terrifying at times.

[Random]

This is a false dichotomy. Yes, existence may be temporary, and is often painful, but it is anything but meaningless.

This is so encouraging. And it's true. Our lives can have a lot of meaning, especially when we realize the meanings for ourselves, instead of being guilted or tricked into a certain meaning or belief.

[MoPag]

Grieving helps. Even though it's not a tangible loss, faith loss is a real loss.
https://www.helpguide.org/articles/grie ... d-loss.htm

It's okay to not be okay. The dark night of the soul can be a powerful teacher.

One thing that helped me was getting involved in activities outside of church. I started volunteering with DD's Girl Scout troop. I was able to make friends with non-LDS moms. And I was able to see that there are good things in the world too. I was absolutely blown away at how nurturing and empowering the Girl Scout program is. The troop leaders were volunteering because THEY ACTUALLY WANTED too. They weren't "called" or guilted into it. These were women who genuinely wanted to do what they could to make things a little bit better for their community. And there are lot of people like that in the world.

[stuck]

Angel,

I just finished watching the short series on Netflix about Bill Gates. That guy is amazing. Anyhow, it was inspirational to me because with his and his wife's foundation they are doing great things. Granted they have lots of money, but I think we can all participate in making the world a better place. Some of the things they have worked on is eradicating polio, improving sanitation in developing countries and inventing safer nuclear power.

And to paraphrase what Not Buying It said at least he's come to the truth about the church and he doesn't have to live that lie anymore although it sounds like the church still has a hold on some of your kids.

Best wishes,

Stuck