On losing your temple recommend

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wtfluff
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by wtfluff » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:37 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:14 pm
I just don't feel good about playing that game anymore. It was different when I had leaders who were more or less forcing a recommend on me, but circumstances appear to have changed.
I suspected as much.

Good luck on finding an activity to replace the "temple date." If/when you find one, a bonus should be that it won't be based on fake, creepy, plagiarized masonic rituals.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Hagoth
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:28 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:37 pm
Good luck on finding an activity to replace the "temple date." If/when you find one, a bonus should be that it won't be based on fake, creepy, plagiarized masonic rituals.
Well, I am considering the Masons as a replacement...
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:31 pm

Confession: when I was not in a good mood about going to the temple I may have bowed my head and said *$$.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Reuben
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Reuben » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:23 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:31 pm
Confession: when I was not in a good mood about going to the temple I may have bowed my head and said *$$.
Amazing that you're still with us. That's the kind of thing that could make God smite you right into TK smoothieville.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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wtfluff
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by wtfluff » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:58 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:28 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:37 pm
Good luck on finding an activity to replace the "temple date." If/when you find one, a bonus should be that it won't be based on fake, creepy, plagiarized masonic rituals.
Well, I am considering the Masons as a replacement...
Hmmm... So you don't want to hang out with Mrs. Hagoth after all?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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moksha
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by moksha » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:12 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:45 pm
My recommend expires in July and I expect to renew it yet again. This will be the fourth bishop and third stake president who will not realize my duplicity. I suppose I am simply in the minority as a person who finds this amusing enough to keep up the facade.
Theoretically, what duplicitous measures would you recommend for a person wishing to retain their Temple recommend for the sake of their spouse?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:51 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:12 pm
Theoretically, what duplicitous measures would you recommend for a person wishing to retain their Temple recommend for the sake of their spouse?
This question was for Corsair, but I'll share my former bishop's hints. 1) replace "faith in" and "testimony of" with "hope for," as in, yeah I can always hope for a real prophet, 2) in the questions that ask if you "strive" to do something, put the emphasis on the "strive," as in I strive to attend my meetings but I just can't make myself do it.

If you have been allowed to nuance the questions with your previous bishop, use that as an opener for the new bishop. "Bishop XXXXX said he really wanted me to have a recommend even though I wasn't sure I could answer the testimony questions as expected, but he helped me find ways to frame the questions that made it easier for me to answer. Nothing has changed in my live, so if it's ok with you, I will take the same approach now."

Assuming you get past your bishop, then when you get to the stake presidency just offer simple yes/no answers without elaboration. You can always say, "sorry, I just remembered that I have to be somewhere, how quickly do you think we can do this?"

Even before my shelf had fully collapsed I made it clear that the way they understood the questions when they asked them was probably very different from the way I understood them when I answered.

Also, I think it helps to be male. A woman I know gave an "I'm not sure" answer on the question about prophets/seers/revelators and the interview ended right there with a scarlet letter stamped on her forehead. I had just passed the interview with the same bishop. But I used the "Bishop XXXXX said..." approach described above.

Of course, if they don't know you're a thought criminal you can just stick to simple yes/no answers and no one will be the wiser. I couldn't do that because I actually had several "arguments" with my bishop where I called myself an apostate and he insisted that I am not.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Corsair » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:57 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:12 pm
Theoretically, what duplicitous measures would you recommend for a person wishing to retain their Temple recommend for the sake of their spouse?
  1. Just give "Yes" and "No" answers to the temple recommend questions. Everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of LDS public opinion.
  2. You will at least have to attend sacrament meeting fairly regularly and say hello to the bishopric members who control issuing temple recommends.
  3. Keep your mouth shut in Sunday School if and when they say something dumb. Make a supportive comment if possible. Forgive them for they know not what they do, and they're rather comfortable in their culture.
  4. Don't commit your sins in public. I don't spread around knowledge of my coffee drinking and non-payment of tithing.
  5. Avoid tithing settlement if possible. If you end up going, practice saying "Yes" with a benign smile on your face when asked if you are a full tithe payer. In the unlikely event that you are pressed for details, let the bishop know that you pay anonymously or you pay with stock transfers so it does not normally show up on the usual tithing history.
  6. Toss in about $20.00 per month for fast offerings. Most wards do use that money to help people you know, and it makes it easier for a leader to overlook several thousand dollars in tithing that you are simply not paying.
  7. Help out with service projects and you will probably have to fulfill a calling. You don't have to do a good job in your calling, but you do need to appear to be a contributing member of the ward.
I will be the first to admit that this is more than many fellow apostates would ever wish to do. I am fully supportive of people who need to make a real break with the LDS church. There is no doubt that lying is an unfortunate part of my LDS experience, but the church is somewhat holding my family hostage. I'm pretty sure that I am a sociopathic outlier who find this all amusing.

As long as I act like a contributing member of my ward, my recommend remains valid. There are no gaps in my recommend history to explain and thus no reason to be on the radar of a fervent bishop who might want me to "catch up" on tithing. I have the acceptance, if not support, of my believing wife and this allows me to hold onto the temple recommend.

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Red Ryder
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:11 am

It’s too bad there wasn’t a NOM Bishop or Counselor who could just issue them anonymously. I’m debating if or when the time comes for children’s weddings to get one.

Maybe I’ll just borrow Corsairs!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Jeffret
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Jeffret » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:28 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:11 am
It’s too bad there wasn’t a NOM Bishop or Counselor who could just issue them anonymously. I’m debating if or when the time comes for children’s weddings to get one.
Does Mike Norton still do that?
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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wtfluff
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:35 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:28 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:11 am
It’s too bad there wasn’t a NOM Bishop or Counselor who could just issue them anonymously. I’m debating if or when the time comes for children’s weddings to get one.
Does Mike Norton still do that?
Supposedly.

I had the fleeting thought of getting a black-market golden-ticket from Mike to just randomly show up at the property-exchange-ceremony in the temple when my kid got married. I made a feeble attempt to contact Mike and he never replied.

I may have caused a heart-attack or two in the temple if I had shown up also, so it's probably all for the better. ;)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Jeffret
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Jeffret » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:55 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:35 pm
I may have caused a heart-attack or two in the temple if I had shown up also, so it's probably all for the better. ;)
Yeah, I really wouldn't want to crash their exclusive party that they've set up to exclude people like from.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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deacon blues
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:48 pm

It sounds like your wife is a cool lady, and more mature than the typical TBM. Could I recommend you just dress up in your temple cloths and go see a movie? ;)
God is Love. God is Truth

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Jeffret
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Jeffret » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:31 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:55 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:35 pm
I may have caused a heart-attack or two in the temple if I had shown up also, so it's probably all for the better. ;)
Yeah, I really wouldn't want to crash their exclusive party that they've set up to exclude people like me from.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:34 pm

I am one who just finally had to go with integrity and stop the temple game. My wife cries when she goes alone I'm sure. I did not baptize or confirm my child last year and sat through the ceremony in as stoic a manner as I could muster while Grandpa had that moment to enjoy. All in all I am satisfied with my decision to come out and be a passive non-participant. I still attend sacrament for the sake of helping with child wrangling. I understand you are past that stage of life Hagoth and therefore I assume your transition to no recommend would be easier unless you still have unmarried member children yet to get temple married.

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moksha
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by moksha » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:34 pm

Cloning Hagoth's former bishop, so an sufficient supply of caring bishops would be available seems the best solution. Barring that option, that bishop's advice of reciting his incantation of protection seems more of a long shot, but still the next best thing.

Perjuring oneself as a means of supporting their spouse seems like a distasteful remedy of last resort. I mean we would all lie to protect Anne Frank from LDS death squads, but simply holding up a silver cross and letting them retreat to the crypt till nightfall is to be wished for.

BTW, Trump has just started a war with Iran.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:43 pm

Mine expires at the end of this month. Outside of a few youth baptism trips, a sealing for one of my past YM, and one last session to see the new video when it came out several years ago, I have not gone. Surprisingly my DW hasn't had one for a year.

IDK what we will do. I just got released from my Stake calling and now just teach primary with DW.

She says she won't miss our girls weddings. Those are several short years away still but we are at a cross road for sure.

I hate faking it.

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Hagoth
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:47 am

Corsair wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:57 am
[*]Toss in about $20.00 per month for fast offerings. Most wards do use that money to help people you know, and it makes it easier for a leader to overlook several thousand dollars in tithing that you are simply not paying.
[/list]
This is one way that I am happy to participate. I know that there is a bit of leadership roulette here too, and some of the donations will probably get beamed up to the mothership anyway, but I know at least some of it goes to help real people in my neighborhood. I wish there were too types of tithing you could choose between: a) building the kingdom, and b) helping people. I used to believe that was what the Humanitarian Fund was but, alas, it seems to be just another avenue for feeding the hungry maw.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Arcturus
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Arcturus » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:11 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:12 pm
Theoretically, what duplicitous measures would you recommend for a person wishing to retain their Temple recommend for the sake of their spouse?
My wife and I were just talking about this yesterday. We both settled on the idea that it's okay to say 'yes' to every question because going to the temple is between you and God, not an administrative checklist.
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:55 am
I am about to have my temple recommend expire for the first time since I got married 30 years ago. This is a very bitter-sweet experience for me. My sweet wife, even though she is very nuanced and even defiant in the face of many LDS teachings, cherishes the temple as a place of spiritual refuge and has been very appreciative of my efforts to maintain a recommend even though she accepts that I am no longer a believer...
If losing your recommend is going to disrupt your wife's wellbeing, Hagoth, I'd say it's okay to say whatever you need to go to the temple with her for her to be happy. The church has lied "for the Lord" for their various reasons. What permits you from doing and continuing to do the same? If there is a God who really cares about how we feel, then I imagine God cares about you going to the temple with your wife, if the net outcome of temple attendance is a positive for you both. I'd say renew it for your wife.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Jeffret
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Re: On losing your temple recommend

Post by Jeffret » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:22 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:47 am
Corsair wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:57 am
Toss in about $20.00 per month for fast offerings. Most wards do use that money to help people you know, and it makes it easier for a leader to overlook several thousand dollars in tithing that you are simply not paying.
This is one way that I am happy to participate. I know that there is a bit of leadership roulette here too, and some of the donations will probably get beamed up to the mothership anyway, but I know at least some of it goes to help real people in my neighborhood. I wish there were too types of tithing you could choose between: a) building the kingdom, and b) helping people. I used to believe that was what the Humanitarian Fund was but, alas, it seems to be just another avenue for feeding the hungry maw.
It's not a bad approach and it's certainly everyone's choice as to how to spend their money. But, Corsair's perspective of it as a transactional arrangement to keep up appearances and get something desired in return makes more sense than the idea that it's actually a productive gift to help others. Clearly the church considers anything it receives as very fungible, for it to use for any purpose it wants, but mostly for hoarding. If you donate it doesn't mean more help is going to go to local people (or anyone really) and if you don't donate there will be less assistance. With most charitable organizations more donations mean more services or help they can give. Not so with the Church. About the only one benefiting from donating to FO are local leaders who are hounded less when the amount coming in is greater than the outgoing.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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