Universal Resurrection confusion

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Rob4Hope
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Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 pm

Mormon's believe in a universal resurrection, which includes plants and animals. As I recall, they also believe that the same body which you die in is what will be resurrected--IE, the same cells and material, etc.

As a young person I had a problem with the whole idea. I am composed of the plants and animals I myself have consumed. My cells have grown in mass as the result of the ingestion of food. If that food itself is to be resurrected, then what happens to the mass in my body that is made from those plants and animals that I ate?

Everything will regress it seems,...going back to where it came from, right back down into the dirt.

I remember bringing this question up once and the people I asked didn't even understand what I was asking, let alone have any answers for me. This was the first time I was told: "You just have to have faith".

After all these years, the entire concept of resurrection is completely illogical to me as its been explained. Years ago when I took this off the shelf and again looked at it, it again made me wonder about the sanity (literally) of the GAs. Did they even have the ability to think logically?...or are they also constrained by the "Just have faith" mantra?

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:20 pm

I always liked the artwork on the JW publications depicting the resurrection.

Perfect looking kids playing with Lions and growing massive garden veggies.

Seems legit.

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Palerider
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Palerider » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:21 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 pm
Mormon's believe in a universal resurrection, which includes plants and animals. As I recall, they also believe that the same body which you die in is what will be resurrected--IE, the same cells and material, etc.
This may be a bit of a misrepresentation of the Mormon idea or concept of resurrection. I know they believe in a literal resurrection but moreso of the characteristic identity of your person rather than of each cell that you have ever produced.

I think the wounds of Christ were probably the only aspects of his resurrection that weren't completely transformed and for good purpose as they were identifying testaments to his being. I'll have to check for sure but as I recall in the Revelation given to John they weren't mentioned as he appeared in a glorified state.

It would be overthinking things a bit to imagine that literally every hair ever produced by our heads would be "restored". A bushy vision appears!

To equate the poorly phrased "that same body" with an utter restoration of each body cell might be tempting and might even raise the question you have presented but I don't think (I'd have to check for sure) that the Biblical scripture makes such an ambiguously worded claim. It sounds more like a 19th century phrase that the writer would assume everyone else would understand what was meant by it.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:57 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 pm
Mormon's believe in a universal resurrection, which includes plants and animals. As I recall, they also believe that the same body which you die in is what will be resurrected--IE, the same cells and material, etc.

<SNIP>

After all these years, the entire concept of resurrection is completely illogical to me as its been explained.

<SNIP>
Isn't that what usually happens when you try to mix science with magic? You might as well spend some time trying to convince yourself that 2+2=5.

Perform some gold-medal level mental gymnastics, or... Just decide "Yeah, reality doesn't work that way" and let the believers keep on believin'.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:06 pm

Palerider wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:21 pm
To equate the poorly phrased "that same body" with an utter restoration of each body cell might be tempting and might even raise the question you have presented but I don't think (I'd have to check for sure) that the Biblical scripture makes such an ambiguously worded claim. It sounds more like a 19th century phrase that the writer would assume everyone else would understand what was meant by it.
A couple of things:
1. Its not the "Biblical scripture" that I am wondering about,...its the hard-core TSCC rendition.
2. JS is the one who said "not one hair" shall be lost. If that is the case, then where is that hair coming from? Last time I had a mineral hair test, they took some hair and looked for minerals. I certainly wasn't BORN with those minerals in my body--they came from somewhere (IE,...food). So, if we don't loose any hair as JS says, then how do you account for the mineral content?

I suppose there is always the possibility that we will be resurrected with very NON earthy parts....after all, we will have "spirit" flowing through our veins and not blood.

Anyway, the problem is that the literal interpretations is what I was taught by LDS leadership--not what I read in the Bible. So, it all falls back on the church.

And again, I suppose they could always come back and say: "But the prophet didn't say that--it was only an apostle who did".

You know, its really hard to keep track of what is doctrine and what isn't. Who knows WHAT the hell are the teachings now anyway?!

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2bizE
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by 2bizE » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:57 am

As I understand the resurrection:
1) you die
2) you are buried in temple clothes facing east
3) morning of first resurrection
4) Mormons buried in temple clothes arise from dead
5) Joseph Smith judges you
6) if you pass JS then men go to the veil and flash your temple signs, tokens, keywords, penalties to pass the sentinels who guard the gate to CK
7) men receive their wives through veil into heaven with signs and keywords, tokens and penalties to get into CK
8) non-Mormons,blacks before 1978 revelation, and bad Mormons get resurrected.
9) they don’t know the keywords, tokens, signs, and penalties so they can’t get into CK. They go to Telestial or terrestrial kingdoms or outer darkness’s after JS judges.
Does this sound about right?
~2bizE

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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:20 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:57 am
As I understand the resurrection:
1) you die
2) you are buried in temple clothes facing east
3) morning of first resurrection
4) Mormons buried in temple clothes arise from dead
5) Joseph Smith judges you
6) if you pass JS then men go to the veil and flash your temple signs, tokens, keywords, penalties to pass the sentinels who guard the gate to CK
7) men receive their wives through veil into heaven with signs and keywords, tokens and penalties to get into CK
8) non-Mormons,blacks before 1978 revelation, and bad Mormons get resurrected.
9) they don’t know the keywords, tokens, signs, and penalties so they can’t get into CK. They go to Telestial or terrestrial kingdoms or outer darkness’s after JS judges.
Does this sound about right?
6.5) Men "call" their wives from the grave, using their "new names." ( Mass confusion, as there are not very many official new names. ;) )
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Hagoth
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:50 pm

I always wondered how many blades of grass had grown in the same spot, and how many ants had ived on the same patch of ground, and what the Spirit World must be like with all of those generations piled on top of each other. Let alone all the people.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:12 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:50 pm
I always wondered how many blades of grass had grown in the same spot, and how many ants had ived on the same patch of ground, and what the Spirit World must be like with all of those generations piled on top of each other. Let alone all the people.
Heh. If you really wanna ponder "turtles all the way down" when it comes to this: Now long as the universe existed? How many times have the atoms that make up our current body been "recycled?" (We are made of star stuff you know...)

There's a finite amount of that "star stuff" isn't there? Which of the "beings" that were composed of that star stuff during billions of years of history has exclusive rights the "original" atoms during the resurrection?

Yup... Science and Elohim magic: 2+2=5!
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Redcrown27
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Redcrown27 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:16 am

This entire conversation is very interesting and at moments somewhat amusing to me.

I really enjoyed the list that 2bizE created.


Will all the animals, vegetables, fruits and grains I have eaten become fully restored? Did all of those things have spirits before they existed? Do they have a spirit after I ate them? How does a healthy resurrected body stay healthy without being able to eat? If a resurrected being does eat something do the things they eat later become resurrected?

I think there are so many things that most people would rather not care to think too deeply about I think this is one of them.

Many of these things are uniquely Mormon and we were taught that we have the restored gospel so we know the truth of all things.

The way I see it is many things were borrowed from other theologies. The rest Joseph Smith pretty much made up as he went along and called it revelation.

After Joseph Smith Jr lost in a gun fight and died ; his death created seeds for other Mormon groups to sprout. Brigham Young took it upon himself to be a leader because he had most seniority in the quorum of the 12. To this day the most seniority member of the Quorum of the 12 becomes the new Prophet once the old prophet dies.

Upon each generation of Prophets come new ideas and made up stories to help move and lead the church into the next generation.

Mormon teachings will slightly and gradually change every time there are new leaders. The older generations of Mormon will still grab hold of the beliefs they were taught when they were younger. The new generation will become confused as the new teachings in the church manuals contradict what the older generations are talking about.

Overly deep thinking about the ever changing theology will eventually lead to slight madness as the deep questions are left unanswered.

The best thing to do is put on a nice big hat, pour a new cup of tea and NEW CUP!! NEW CUP!! MOOOVE DOWN!!! MOOOVE DOWN!!

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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by 1smartdodog » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:52 am

I have often thought this same thing. None of us are composed of unique matter. We are all recycled atoms. Any living thing that grows has to obtain matter from someplace. When shed cells everyday that need to be replaced. Quit literally we completely replace ourselves throughout our life. The only thing that stays is our consciousness. Even that might be debatable.

There is a thought, I will not even call it a theory that there is only one electron in the universe. Moving back and forth trough time existing everyplace at the same time. It tries to explain why every electron has the same mass and charge.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... -electron/

So making an enormous leap, maybe we are manifestations of the same thing. We are all god at the same time. We all are manifestations of the same entity. We are all composed of the same particles all of the time. Not even even sure what that means. It is some serious woo woo. If anything, it means religions in general don't have a clue.
Last edited by 1smartdodog on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by moksha » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 am

On an atomic level, you are not the same person you were five years ago. On a molecular level, you are not the same person you were five years ago. On a cellular level, you are not the same person you were five years ago.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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alas
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by alas » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:34 am

I once considered all the ants that have ever lived on earth being resurrected and the earth is now twenty feet deep in crawling ant bodies. Never mind all the mosquitoes. I decided Joseph had a screw loose about resurrecting animals.

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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by moksha » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:50 pm

The insistence on a physical resurrection so we can continue practicing polygamy to populate the planets, does pose some logistical and material problems. All our dust gets scattered and reintroduced into other organic matter and our water molecules redistributed around the planet.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:02 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:52 am
So making an enormous leap, maybe we are manifestations of the same thing. We are all god at the same time. We all are manifestations of the same entity. We are all composed of the same particles...
...or particle. Maybe just as all electrons may be one particle, maybe all particles may be different manifestations of one all-particle. And that particle isn't really a thing, it is a perturbation in a field. That particle/field is God. And it's all there is...is...is...is (fade echo, cue theremin music).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:04 pm

moksha wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:50 pm
The insistence on a physical resurrection so we can continue practicing polygamy to populate the planets, does pose some logistical and material problems. All our dust gets scattered and reintroduced into other organic matter and our water molecules redistributed around the planet.
According to Bill Bryson, every breath you take includes at least on molecule from the dying breath of everyone who lived in the past 100 years. So right now you have a bit of Joseph Smith in your body. And Hitler.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:00 am

I want my foreskin back

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wtfluff
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:05 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:00 am
I want my foreskin back
TMI Rob... TMI!
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Just This Guy
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:07 am

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:05 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:00 am
I want my foreskin back
TMI Rob... TMI!

If you want even more TMI, then consider that foreskin can be regrown...
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Universal Resurrection confusion

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:49 am

Yeh yeh. Actually...that was a quote from 28 Days with Sandra Bullock. I plagiarized.

Jokes aside...the bottom line for me is resurrection is contradictory.


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