Church's tendency to misrepresent
Church's tendency to misrepresent
So I'm reading this article from LDS Living that from the title one might think it's a letter from RMN to an individual who had a faith crisis. It isn't.
Turns out it's a story about how an atheist becomes converted to the church by being inspired by the "commanding presence" of RMN and other of his great accomplishments.
As I'm reading along one of the comments made was:
"Craig was struck when he learned that the commanding presence belonged to a 95-year-old, but Craig was even more intrigued that this man was held by Missy and Glen as a prophet of God. In fact, Craig was so interested that after the Conference session ended, he did some research and discovered that Russell M. Nelson was a surgeon who had been central to the development of the heart-lung machine—a machine that opened the door for countless lifesaving and life-prolonging operations."
com/A-Letter-from-the-Prophet-to-a-Former-Unbeliever/s/92666?utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=popular&utm_content=pop2200414
This was news to me so I started a little research. As it turns out, a surgeon by the name of John Gibbons from Philadelphia was the first initiator of developing a successful cardio bypass machine. He and his team worked out of a hospital in Massachusetts. (Forgive me I forget the name contained in the reference below.)
https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiolog ... ary-bypass
Dr. Gibbons was later consulted by a surgeon by the name of Clarence Dennis out of Minneapolis who formed and headed a team that did corollary research as well. One of the resident members of Dennis's team was Russell M. Nelson. The medical history library describes Dennis's work below:
"In April 1951, after numerous trials with dogs, Dennis and his team became the first to use a pump-oxygenator to perform open heart surgery on a human patient. Though the machine performed very well, the surgeons were unable to save the six-year-old patient, because her heart defect turned out to be much more extensive than the atrial septal defect they had diagnosed. Dennis's second attempted open heart operation, several weeks later, also failed, when a technician's error caused a fatal air embolism. Dennis continued to improve his heart-lung machine, and in 1955 completed his first successful cardiac operation with it, two years after John Gibbon's first success in 1953."
https://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/spotlight/ ... ographical
With the beginning of the Korean conflict in 1951, R.M. Nelson left the research team and served in the army medical corp for which he deserves great thanks. But by the time he returned to Salt Lake City around 1953, Gibbons and Dennis who were heading up and working on the heart-lung by-pass machines were well on their way to perfecting the technology.
I have no doubt that Pres. Nelson made a contribution as a member of Clarence Dennis's team. It's not in question. But the way the article reads one gets the feeling that RMN was THE MAN.
So I'm wondering, am I being picayune? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill to ask that the church approved magazines paint a slightly more accurate picture of leadership?
Or does this article reflect an ingrained cultural tendency to exaggerate and aggrandize, to puff up the heroic facade of church leadership?
Turns out it's a story about how an atheist becomes converted to the church by being inspired by the "commanding presence" of RMN and other of his great accomplishments.
As I'm reading along one of the comments made was:
"Craig was struck when he learned that the commanding presence belonged to a 95-year-old, but Craig was even more intrigued that this man was held by Missy and Glen as a prophet of God. In fact, Craig was so interested that after the Conference session ended, he did some research and discovered that Russell M. Nelson was a surgeon who had been central to the development of the heart-lung machine—a machine that opened the door for countless lifesaving and life-prolonging operations."
com/A-Letter-from-the-Prophet-to-a-Former-Unbeliever/s/92666?utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=popular&utm_content=pop2200414
This was news to me so I started a little research. As it turns out, a surgeon by the name of John Gibbons from Philadelphia was the first initiator of developing a successful cardio bypass machine. He and his team worked out of a hospital in Massachusetts. (Forgive me I forget the name contained in the reference below.)
https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiolog ... ary-bypass
Dr. Gibbons was later consulted by a surgeon by the name of Clarence Dennis out of Minneapolis who formed and headed a team that did corollary research as well. One of the resident members of Dennis's team was Russell M. Nelson. The medical history library describes Dennis's work below:
"In April 1951, after numerous trials with dogs, Dennis and his team became the first to use a pump-oxygenator to perform open heart surgery on a human patient. Though the machine performed very well, the surgeons were unable to save the six-year-old patient, because her heart defect turned out to be much more extensive than the atrial septal defect they had diagnosed. Dennis's second attempted open heart operation, several weeks later, also failed, when a technician's error caused a fatal air embolism. Dennis continued to improve his heart-lung machine, and in 1955 completed his first successful cardiac operation with it, two years after John Gibbon's first success in 1953."
https://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/spotlight/ ... ographical
With the beginning of the Korean conflict in 1951, R.M. Nelson left the research team and served in the army medical corp for which he deserves great thanks. But by the time he returned to Salt Lake City around 1953, Gibbons and Dennis who were heading up and working on the heart-lung by-pass machines were well on their way to perfecting the technology.
I have no doubt that Pres. Nelson made a contribution as a member of Clarence Dennis's team. It's not in question. But the way the article reads one gets the feeling that RMN was THE MAN.
So I'm wondering, am I being picayune? Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill to ask that the church approved magazines paint a slightly more accurate picture of leadership?
Or does this article reflect an ingrained cultural tendency to exaggerate and aggrandize, to puff up the heroic facade of church leadership?
Last edited by Palerider on Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
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- Not Buying It
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Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
Geez, I can't say, they lost me at "commanding presence".
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
LDS Living is tabloid material for the faithful.
Has RMN ever discussed his participation in any detail? Maybe in his biography or a talk?
I’ll I’ve ever heard was stories similar to this article.
Has RMN ever discussed his participation in any detail? Maybe in his biography or a talk?
I’ll I’ve ever heard was stories similar to this article.
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Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
Facts tend to mess up good faith promoting stories. Remember the sailor guy who took a walk on the deck of the destroyer during near typhoon conditions to look at the props because the holey ghost told him too...and the missionary who taught and baptized the biker dude, who ended up being his older bro that he had never met....Daytime soaps have more truth than these. But to TBM's the facts of a story are irrelevant; it's all about the 'burnin in my boosom'. I am very skeptical of any conference talk or print story anymore.
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
You're joking right?
The Spirit™ of Paul H. Dunn lives on in Elohim-Inc. This has always been so.
Consiglieri points this out quite often in his podcasts.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
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Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
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Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
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Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
Just what i was thinking.Not Buying It wrote:Geez, I can't say, they lost me at "commanding presence".
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Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
Mrs. Hagoth watched a church-produced biography of RMN and it gave the impression that he was the genius behind the heart-lung machine. It opened a door to letting you believe that machine exists because of the inspiration of a man of God on the team. I have heard testimonies borne about his medical genius as evidence of his divine calling.
All of that erroneously gives weight to his denial of evolution, of course. He's on the inside track of science, so I must be misunderstanding the physical evidence because it conflicts with his prophetic evidence (i.e. he says so).
All of that erroneously gives weight to his denial of evolution, of course. He's on the inside track of science, so I must be misunderstanding the physical evidence because it conflicts with his prophetic evidence (i.e. he says so).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
I hope everyone here has listened to Consiglieri's podcast about how The Russells fictionalized a real event and inserted all kinds of new miraculous details into it to make him seem so, so, so special. And got busted.
https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/06/rad ... nt-nelson/
Spoiler: he had to remove an entire chapter from his autobiography when witnessed to the event pointed out that it was a wild exaggeration.
https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/06/rad ... nt-nelson/
Spoiler: he had to remove an entire chapter from his autobiography when witnessed to the event pointed out that it was a wild exaggeration.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
- RubinHighlander
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Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
I think this pattern vindicates Pale Rider's observation of LDS-Living's exaggerations as anything but trifle. I still can't get over how that tabloid published an article a few years ago about how the BoA explains the way the universe works! May as well have been a flat earther writing it.Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:49 am I hope everyone here has listened to Consiglieri's podcast about how The Russells fictionalized a real event and inserted all kinds of new miraculous details into it to make him seem so, so, so special. And got busted.
https://radiofreemormon.org/2019/06/rad ... nt-nelson/
Spoiler: he had to remove an entire chapter from his autobiography when witnessed to the event pointed out that it was a wild exaggeration.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
My personal favorite was the one that explained how animals got from Antarctica to Noah's ark and then back again. Angels carried them. Kinda begs the question of why an ark was needed in the first place, but who am I to second-question Yahweh?RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:39 am I still can't get over how that tabloid published an article a few years ago about how the BoA explains the way the universe works! May as well have been a flat earther writing it.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
- RubinHighlander
- Posts: 1906
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Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
LOL! That's like the plot hole in LOTR where the eagles could have just carried the ring to the volcano and dropped it in there!Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:56 amMy personal favorite was the one that explained how animals got from Antarctica to Noah's ark and then back again. Angels carried them. Kinda begs the question of why an ark was needed in the first place, but who am I to second-question Yahweh?RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:39 am I still can't get over how that tabloid published an article a few years ago about how the BoA explains the way the universe works! May as well have been a flat earther writing it.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
And it's still a less fantastic story (LOTR that is).RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:51 am LOL! That's like the plot hole in LOTR where the eagles could have just carried the ring to the volcano and dropped it in there!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
1. The Nazgul could have plotted an intercept course.RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:51 am That's like the plot hole in LOTR where the eagles could have just carried the ring to the volcano and dropped it in there!
2. The eagles may have also been subject to the corrupting influence of the ring. Give an eagle the one ring and he might have set himself up as the one "mighty and strong".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
They totally could have done it. It'd be just like Beggar's Canyon back home.moksha wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:48 pm1. The Nazgul could have plotted an intercept course.RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:51 am That's like the plot hole in LOTR where the eagles could have just carried the ring to the volcano and dropped it in there!
2. The eagles may have also been subject to the corrupting influence of the ring. Give an eagle the one ring and he might have set himself up as the one "mighty and strong".
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.
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Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
That's a great point birdman! I trust your knowledge of ancient magical rings and avian influences. Your LOTR apologetic Jedi bird mind trick has convinced me. Thanks to Reuben for mixing in one more fantasy drama. Good old Womp Rats...moksha wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:48 pm1. The Nazgul could have plotted an intercept course.RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:51 am That's like the plot hole in LOTR where the eagles could have just carried the ring to the volcano and dropped it in there!
2. The eagles may have also been subject to the corrupting influence of the ring. Give an eagle the one ring and he might have set himself up as the one "mighty and strong".
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
You guys aren't seeing the big picture. The eagles were late because they were busy protecting Hogwarts from Voldemort's womp rat siege.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
Sauron would have been watching for something obvious like giant birds, but little pudgy Hobbits? Then again, he knew at one point the ring was in the Shire so Hobbits should have been on his list of creatures banned from Mount Doom.
RMN can't just be another ordinary guy. He has to be The Special. He has to be larger than life, a commanding presence and a great and wonderful wizard. Which he is.
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RMN can't just be another ordinary guy. He has to be The Special. He has to be larger than life, a commanding presence and a great and wonderful wizard. Which he is.
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I know the church is true beyond any shadow of a doubt. I love my Mom and Dad and I know they love me too.
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
It was hard for Sauron to wrap his head around the concept of destroying the ring. He expected the wielder of the ring to preside over General Conference and declare himself King and High Priest of Middle Earth.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
Re: Church's tendency to misrepresent
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.