Preparing a defense

[deacon blues]

I got several calls from the HP group leader and the executive secretary this week. It seems some one in the ward wants to talk to Bro. Ricks, er... Bro. Blues about his situation. I asked one caller, "what do you want to talk about" and the reply: "Oh, I just want to talk". I really think my current situation is acceptable. I attend occasional ward meetings, mainly to sing in the choir my wife directs. I attend a Presbyterian church somewhat more regularly, but have no plans to officially join. I just enjoy the atmosphere and the more scholarly based teachings. I am a Christian, working to sustain a belief in that amazing Man who I am convinced lived 2,000 years ago. But I am also convinced Joseph Smith's claims are fraudulent, and if questioned I would probably admit it. I just get the uneasy feeling if I start talking to bishops and HP group leaders, I will start down a path that may lead to church discipline. Being a 60+ year old introvert with a history of depression, means if push came to shove, I might just resign instead. I intend to be honest, but for several reasons, I don't want a bunch of interviews. What can I do?

[Dravin]

I got several calls from the HP group leader and the executive secretary this week. It seems some one in the ward wants to talk to Bro. Ricks, er... Bro. Blues about his situation. I asked one caller, "what do you want to talk about" and the reply: "Oh, I just want to talk". I really think my current situation is acceptable. I attend occasional ward meetings, mainly to sing in the choir my wife directs. I attend a Presbyterian church somewhat more regularly, but have no plans to officially join. I just enjoy the atmosphere and the more scholarly based teachings. I am a Christian, working to sustain a belief in that amazing Man who I am convinced lived 2,000 years ago. But I am also convinced Joseph Smith's claims are fraudulent, and if questioned I would probably admit it. I just get the uneasy feeling if I start talking to bishops and HP group leaders, I will start down a path that may lead to church discipline. Being a 60+ year old introvert with a history of depression, means if push came to shove, I might just resign instead. I intend to being honest, but for several reasons, I don't want a bunch of interviews. What can I do?

Don't meet with them. Oh sure, that will raise red flags, but responding to requests/demands for meetings with a simple, "No, thanks." means you won't be subjected to a bunch of interviews.

[Corsair]

Your HPGL is going into this meeting with the assumption that you need to explain yourself. Don't fall into that trap. It is actually the obligation of HPGL, and the LDS church by extension, to explain themselves. The LDS church must explain why it should be a compelling influence in your life. You have no legal or moral obligation to explain your position as long as you are not hurting anyone. While you are free to do so, It turns out that almost zero faithful Mormons actually want any apostate or heretic to explain themselves.

Here is what you said about why you attend the LDS church:

I just enjoy the atmosphere and the more scholarly based teachings. I am a Christian, working to sustain a belief in that amazing Man who I am convinced lived 2,000 years ago.

Thousands of Christian churches would love to have a Christian like you attending regularly. Most faiths would welcome someone who simply wanted to serve others and develop their own moral, Christian foundation like this. The LDS church wants far more from their membership and does not want any debate or discussion unless it ends with "obey the LDS prophets".

Pretend that your HPGL is coming to your house to convince you to take up some expensive hobby like golf. No person on this planet would ever have to justify why they don't eagerly want to play golf. Golf is not a bad game at all and I can see why people enjoy it. I followed Phil Mickelson around the Phoenix Open a few years ago and was impressed with his skill. But I have no interest in taking up golf because I already have engaging hobbies. Phil would not mind at all that I prefer other activities and he won't be coming by my house to quote from the book of Tiger Woods or try to pray for my membership in the golf club near my house.

Your HPGL will be depending on the usual LDS epistemology and will be largely oblivious towards how awkward this will be. I can't take away the emotionally draining character of this encounter. But you don't have to agree to anything he says nor are you obligated to tell him anything at all. The fewer explanations you give, the easier it will be. Keep it simply in the arena of basic, universalist Christianity and don't assume the "logic" any of his restorationist talking points. Treat anything having to do with Joseph Smith as irrelevant. Treat the LDS church with indifference. Express love and allegiance towards Jesus the Christ and that your High Priest Group is a good community of believers, but virtually nothing more.

[Red Ryder]

Here is what you said about why you attend the LDS church:

I just enjoy the atmosphere and the more scholarly based teachings. I am a Christian, working to sustain a belief in that amazing Man who I am convinced lived 2,000 years ago.

<snip>
But you don't have to agree to anything he says nor are you obligated to tell him anything at all. The fewer explanations you give, the easier it will be. Keep it simply in the arena of basic, universalist Christianity and don't assume the "logic" any of his restorationist talking points. Treat anything having to do with Joseph Smith as irrelevant. Treat the LDS church with indifference. Express love and allegiance towards Jesus the Christ and that your High Priest Group is a good community of believers, but virtually nothing more.

This is really a good point. They don't want to know the truth or resolve your issues. They just want to verify your allegiance to the false narrative.

Don't let some dude who lived 200 years ago who ran around convincing people to join his church and sexually bedding the women and children of his congregation ruin your life today.

If you do decide to talk, talk honestly about your desire to see the church focus more on Christ.

[wtfluff]

I don't want a bunch of interviews. What can I do?

As others have mentioned, you have no obligation whatsoever to submit yourself to these folks for "interviews".

Nancy's cute slogan fits quite well:

[didyoumythme]

"I just want to talk" isn't a good reason. It's OK to respond with, "talk about what"? Your testimony it ultimately no one else's business so you don't have to answer any questions if you aren't comfortable.

[RubinHighlander]

I ran into this when I ended up on the project list because of attendance drop off and not renewing my recommend, etc. I took the advice of three other friends who had gone through a similar process when church leaders started hounding them for meetings. That is, you keep control over your life and situation by not letting them treat you like a child and do not submit to their authority by agreeing to meet with them in any official capacity. Also, if you do meet with them you can keep control over the conversation.

So when I started getting hounded to meet with the bishop I politely told the exec sec that I was happy to go to lunch with him but would be unable to meet with him in his office. You can make an excuse or just flat out tell them. Ultimately, I ended up sending those leaders my resignation via email before I ended up going to lunch with the bish. I had thought about it for a long time and decided that no meeting with him would be best. As I thought through the situation there could be no pleasant outcome to a lunch meeting. This brings me to my next point about controlling the conversation.

There is no way productive way to dive into the details with these guys as to why you don't believe the truth claims. The second you divulge any detail, they jump on it and will run off to find an answer, or provide the trite response about doubting your doubts and having faith, that it's really just okay, that you don't need to worry about messy historical things because you feel the spirit. You end up in pointless circular arguments because no matter how much logic you throw down, their TBM glasses will filter it out and they will be more solidified in their beliefs, wrapping the coat around them tighter the harder the wind blows against them.

So, if you do want to invite them over into your home (do not agree to meet at the church) then you can control the conversation by keeping it really basic, avoiding any details about church things. Just state that you enjoy occasional attendance and that is the level of participation that you choose. If they want something more you just tell them that you do not desire anything more than that. If they feel the need to not have you participate anymore because your current state is not acceptable then you wish them well and they can be on their way. You can lay down the rules of engagement that you will not be treated like you are a child, like you are broken or need to be saved in some way, that you are quite happy and at peace with God, Jesus and your current level of participation with the LDS church. Nothing more really needs to be said and this will keep you in a position of power. What can they really say to argue against that? You hold all the cards, they don't.

They will be puzzled and have cogdis and look at you with amazement that you can be okay with where you are, because you won't get to their super VIP heaven on that path, but that's their problem to grapple with. By making it clear to them that you know they are there to try and fix you but you and you do not need or want to be fixed, then what can they do?

If it's your membership on the line, and they get desperate and try to threaten you with discipline, take that power away from them as well. Tell them you will simply resign because you know your legal rights, that you know how the process of resignation works and they have no authority over you to call you into any type of disciplinary counsel or harass you with lots of phone calls and visits. It worked for me and others I talked to before I made my exit.

Good luck; I hope this helps in some way. Let us know how it goes.

[deacon blues]

Thanks everyone for the interest and advice. The executive secretary called last night (again) and i said "thanks but no thaanks". HP haven't checked back, but I did get a home teacher visit with a lesson on Mary Whitmer, the 12th or 13th witness to the gold plates.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Your situation is similar to mine after it became apparent to the ward leadership that I had gone rogue. When the exec sec texted me about an appointment, I emailed the bishop directly and told him I'm not interested in meeting on an ecclesiastical level at this time but would be happy to take him to lunch sometime on me. Never happened, never been bothered since.

[No Tof]

The only thing I could add would be to review the thread given as tribute to Giant Sloth by Korihor on how to deal with leadership. Not only hilarious but highly effective IMO.

Re: I learned from the best, Giant Sloth
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Post by Giant Sloth » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:18 am

Is it better as a MM (marginalized member) to be covered in camo or be completely transparent?
That's an important question! Luckily in the church, nothing can eat you if you don't want it to. They can only nip at you. But if you never come down from the canopy for them, it becomes a huge hassle for them to even do that.

When people are trying to reactivate/ give you a calling / interrogate / etc., make them work for it at every single step.
Reprimands
"We've missed you", is a reprimand, but you can pretend it's not. Reply with "Oh." or "Thanks for thinking of me.", or the Blank Stare.
Interrogations
People will almost never ask you anything bluntly, so you can avoid their intent by answering them literally. "Have you been out of town?" (No.) "Is everything alright with your family." (Yes, thanks.)
Callings, etc.
More experienced/confident leaders learned to ask direct, "will you" questions on the mission. Even though these are technically yes/no questions, it's always amusing to answer them as though they are offers.
"Can you make yourself available for the Stake Presidency to visit this Wednesday?" (No thank you.)
"Will you accept this calling?" (No thank you)
"Can you fulfill your obligation to help clean the church this Saturday?" (No thank you.)

The Blank Stare, explained
Mormonism follows scripts. If you go off script, you derail the whole conversation and the Bishop's (or home teacher's, etc.) goal is thwarted. The blank stare is when you derail the script by just assuming a neutral expression and not saying a word until the other person speaks again. Imagine the following statements being answered with a friendly but very blank stare.
"I'm your new home teacher."
"You've been assigned to clean the church tomorrow."
"We've missed you at church these last few weeks."
"The leadership is worried about you."
"Well I can tell you in my own life, I've gotten answers to any question I took to the Lord sincerely."
"We want to encourage you to read and pray every day."
"I know taking callings is hard, but we receive blessings when we serve."
"I hope you'll reconsider."

Even though I rebranded the blank stare as my own invention, silence is a fairly well-known negotiation tool among salesmen and other business types. The adage is, "He who speaks first loses."

Warning: It is painfully awkward the first few times doing this. It's supposed to be -- that's why it works so well. As uncomfortable as it is for you, it is more so for your poor bishop. After a few blank stares, most people will quit trying to get you to do anything.


So not meeting is probably the easiest route but if you go, use the advice in this thread and you'll do just fine.
Good luck.

[moksha]

The Church in the past might have been overbearing in enforcing its orthodoxy. The Church in the future will need to be more tolerant due to members not buying into that orthodoxy. When the Church is bursting at the seams they can afford to be more cutthroat. When the numbers ebb, a more tolerant and accepting approach is needed. Unfortunately, we live between the past and the future. It is hard to tell how tolerance works in your area.

Being a 60+ year old introvert with a history of depression, means if push came to shove, I might just resign instead. I intend to be honest, but for several reasons, I don't want a bunch of interviews. What can I do?

Tell them how apprehensive you are due to your depression and introversion. Say you would rather not have such a meeting due to that apprehension. It is for their own ultimate good not to let them get you in a position where they can judge you. Some Mormons think they are a "judge in Israel" without even the slightest acknowledgment that they are not in Israel and that Israel would never permit them to become a judge.

[GoodBoy]

There is no way productive way to dive into the details with these guys as to why you don't believe the truth claims.

This. As much as you'd love to prove them wrong and justify yourself, it is a waste of your time and results in nothing but damage to your relationship with that person.