Really frustrated lately...

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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alas
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by alas » Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:06 pm

You know, my husband accepted where I am when I convinced him I had no need to take away his beliefs. I wasn’t trying to convince him he was wrong, so he relaxed his guard. So, I am wondering how your wife would react if you told her, “I Have decided that I don’t want to prove to you that the church is not what it claims to be. I don’t think it is what you want. I think you only asked me to because you don’t believe I can, not that you want me to. So I won’t cause problems by trying. You see yourself as a good person because of the church, and I Don’t want to try to take away who you see yourself as. You say that the good things about you are because you are Mormon, so although I *think* you would be a great person without the church, I don’t really *know* who you would be without the church. I do know you are a great person with the church, so I am not going to try to change that. I can accept that being Mormon is something you want. So, I am going to TRY to support you in that. If you ever feel that I am undermining that, let me know, because supporting you in something I don’t believe is hard. What I won’t do, because it isn’t good for me, is be Mormon with you.”

So, I am just wondering out loud over here. Ignore me if I am off base on this.

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jfro18
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by jfro18 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:35 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:06 pm
You know, my husband accepted where I am when I convinced him I had no need to take away his beliefs. I wasn’t trying to convince him he was wrong, so he relaxed his guard. So, I am wondering how your wife would react if you told her, “I Have decided that I don’t want to prove to you that the church is not what it claims to be. I don’t think it is what you want. I think you only asked me to because you don’t believe I can, not that you want me to. So I won’t cause problems by trying. You see yourself as a good person because of the church, and I Don’t want to try to take away who you see yourself as. You say that the good things about you are because you are Mormon, so although I *think* you would be a great person without the church, I don’t really *know* who you would be without the church. I do know you are a great person with the church, so I am not going to try to change that. I can accept that being Mormon is something you want. So, I am going to TRY to support you in that. If you ever feel that I am undermining that, let me know, because supporting you in something I don’t believe is hard. What I won’t do, because it isn’t good for me, is be Mormon with you.”
This is effectively what we were doing... I just ignored church stuff and talked with people about it who have left, and she obviously reads DezNat people and has constant reinforcement from her family.

But what drives me insane is that she's teaching our kid this stuff where if I were to add any historical context I'd be the bad person and, what really brought this on, is that she was constantly undercutting basic science because of the church as well as getting upset that LGBT people were getting protections from the Supreme Court because the church doesn't want it.

I'm not sure what to do with that to be honest, and that's what made me so frustrated... hearing some of the same arguments made that DezNat people make online also makes me want to cry because that's not who she is, but it's who she thinks she needs to be.

Once I finish this document she asked for (it's going to take a long time) I'm going to present it to her in the way you mentioned - effectively telling her that if she doesn't ever want to read it, that's fine, but that she should never read it until she's ready for it and that I'm OK if she's never ready to read it. But at the same time, I do want to be able to explain these things to our kid when he has questions... and that's where we keep running into problems.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by SaidNobody » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:38 am

The basic function of religion is to provide identity and a chain-of-command for the mind to follow if crisis hits.

A lot of cultural function is about mind control. We can make social rules that people can work with, but when something happens outside of those rules, we look for "high power." Those with a "high-power" tend to be more constant than those that don't. Many people have accepted "science" as higher-power but is like a cult of its own, highlighting certain ideas that serve those that fund it. For many clinging to religions, it's about "who controls your mind?" And to them, science isn't a good answer. I'm willing to be bet more people have dead in the name of science than religion.

Anyway, it isn't about being right or wrong. It's about mutual respect. I know that can be hard, especially for TBMs, but it can be done. Science and God are same thing to me. They are but methods to explain our existence. While I can sort of hold my own in a science discussion, people think I'm just plain crazy when it comes to spiritual discussion.

But, you will find, that identity is about the most precious we humans have. Some are more willing to change their beliefs as it doesn't really change who they are. For example: And open-minded Mormon can change because his true nature is more open, while a TBM might fight to the death before giving up their identity.

People that still consider attacks on the Church to be attacks on them are still strongly dependant on the church for their identity.

I don't really respect covid much either. The science has flip-flopped on this like an angry minnow trying to get back to the water. Science "pretends" to know more than it does, that is for sure.

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alas
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by alas » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:11 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:38 am
The basic function of religion is to provide identity and a chain-of-command for the mind to follow if crisis hits.

A lot of cultural function is about mind control. We can make social rules that people can work with, but when something happens outside of those rules, we look for "high power." Those with a "high-power" tend to be more constant than those that don't. Many people have accepted "science" as higher-power but is like a cult of its own, highlighting certain ideas that serve those that fund it. For many clinging to religions, it's about "who controls your mind?" And to them, science isn't a good answer. I'm willing to be bet more people have dead in the name of science than religion.

Anyway, it isn't about being right or wrong. It's about mutual respect. I know that can be hard, especially for TBMs, but it can be done. Science and God are same thing to me. They are but methods to explain our existence. While I can sort of hold my own in a science discussion, people think I'm just plain crazy when it comes to spiritual discussion.

But, you will find, that identity is about the most precious we humans have. Some are more willing to change their beliefs as it doesn't really change who they are. For example: And open-minded Mormon can change because his true nature is more open, while a TBM might fight to the death before giving up their identity.

People that still consider attacks on the Church to be attacks on them are still strongly dependant on the church for their identity.

I don't really respect covid much either. The science has flip-flopped on this like an angry minnow trying to get back to the water. Science "pretends" to know more than it does, that is for sure.

I recognize that angel as belonging to an old time poster by the initials S.P.G. Hi.

Anyway, about Covid, it does sound a lot like the science is flip flopping. But part of that is the press who are anxious to jump on any little hint of answers. So, when the scientists says, “it is too early to tell.” Or they try to save the face masks for the health professionals, their words of “face masks are not necessary for the average person at THIS time” is shortened to “face masks don’t do any good. (You know, that wasn’t what I heard the scientists saying) so, when the scientist says “I don’t know yet!” the reporter pushes him for a best guess, then they publish that as fact, when it was THEM who refused to take “I don’t know,” as an answer. I have listened to the scientist say over and over, “this is a new virus, and we just don’t know yet.” Then some politician says crap and the people who are desperate for answers jump on it as if it came from science. Then I suspect Trump is putting pressure on the CDC, and they retract a statement because he forces them to. Such as their recently retracted statement that Covid can be airborne. Well, duh, I know even enough about other Corona viruses to know that Corona viruses get transferred from person to person by microscopic air particles = airborne. Of course this new one is too. All of its close cousins are, like the common cold. But because of politics, science is being bullied to change their mind. So, I trust science to EVENTUALLY give us answers, but I don’t always trust everything that gets said in the news and I keep in mind that scientists have been bullied before and they will be again because some people don’t always like the answers.

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wtfluff
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by wtfluff » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:35 am

alas wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:11 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:38 am
I don't really respect covid much either. The science has flip-flopped on this like an angry minnow trying to get back to the water. Science "pretends" to know more than it does, that is for sure.
I recognize that angel as belonging to an old time poster by the initials S.P.G. Hi.

Anyway, about Covid, it does sound a lot like the science is flip flopping. But part of that is the press who are anxious to jump on any little hint of answers. So, when the scientists says, “it is too early to tell.” Or they try to save the face masks for the health professionals, their words of “face masks are not necessary for the average person at THIS time” is shortened to “face masks don’t do any good. (You know, that wasn’t what I heard the scientists saying) so, when the scientist says “I don’t know yet!” the reporter pushes him for a best guess, then they publish that as fact, when it was THEM who refused to take “I don’t know,” as an answer. I have listened to the scientist say over and over, “this is a new virus, and we just don’t know yet.” Then some politician says crap and the people who are desperate for answers jump on it as if it came from science. Then I suspect Trump is putting pressure on the CDC, and they retract a statement because he forces them to. Such as their recently retracted statement that Covid can be airborne. Well, duh, I know even enough about other Corona viruses to know that Corona viruses get transferred from person to person by microscopic air particles = airborne. Of course this new one is too. All of its close cousins are, like the common cold. But because of politics, science is being bullied to change their mind. So, I trust science to EVENTUALLY give us answers, but I don’t always trust everything that gets said in the news and I keep in mind that scientists have been bullied before and they will be again because some people don’t always like the answers.
Well... I, for one, would like S.P.G. to let us know what sort of answers/help "religion" has provided to help with the current pandemic?

(Sorry, I couldn't stop my fingers.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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SaidNobody
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:46 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:11 am

I recognize that angel as belonging to an old time poster by the initials S.P.G. Hi.

Anyway, about Covid, it does sound a lot like the science is flip flopping. But part of that is the press who are anxious to jump on any little hint of answers. So, when the scientists says, “it is too early to tell.” Or they try to save the face masks for the health professionals, their words of “face masks are not necessary for the average person at THIS time” is shortened to “face masks don’t do any good. (You know, that wasn’t what I heard the scientists saying) so, when the scientist says “I don’t know yet!” the reporter pushes him for a best guess, then they publish that as fact, when it was THEM who refused to take “I don’t know,” as an answer. I have listened to the scientist say over and over, “this is a new virus, and we just don’t know yet.” Then some politician says crap and the people who are desperate for answers jump on it as if it came from science. Then I suspect Trump is putting pressure on the CDC, and they retract a statement because he forces them to. Such as their recently retracted statement that Covid can be airborne. Well, duh, I know even enough about other Corona viruses to know that Corona viruses get transferred from person to person by microscopic air particles = airborne. Of course this new one is too. All of its close cousins are, like the common cold. But because of politics, science is being bullied to change their mind. So, I trust science to EVENTUALLY give us answers, but I don’t always trust everything that gets said in the news and I keep in mind that scientists have been bullied before and they will be again because some people don’t always like the answers.
Hi alas, it's been a while since we've talked. I stop by, now and then, to see that you have given some great wisdom that I really cannot argue with, so I move along.

I can see where you are coming from with the COVID-19 thing. And that is one "obvious" take on it. But I was also referring to the "followers" of the science. A cautious stance for science to take is the "I don't know." Because, well, they don't know. But, another form of science quickly emerged called, "I don't know anyone that got sick or died, how bad can it be?" But, I follow the rules and wear the mask-like everyone else because hey, I need supplies.

I was running the numbers constantly in the beginning; before I just didn't care anymore, but almost everyone that died had another deadly disease, like diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc. Most vulnerable were the elderly that had these co-morbidities. Now, I don't know if it is considered science, but this pandemic, here in America, wasn't the much deadly and then anything that comes through here. It was VERY contagious, but wasn't that deadly, by itself.
'
But people with agendas, from all sides, would "quote the science" to manipulate people to do what they want. Reminded me of the church authority structure, like quoting the scriptures to compel your neighbor to give you part of the harvest. Like, our governor still won't let some business open up because they are not "essential." It seems to me that some governors intentionally hurt the economy of the state, so they either demand emergency funds or stick it to the man. Or like that fires in California being about global warming. Back in the '70s and '80s, when there was some concern of an ice-age, the EPA shut down lumber harvesting on Kiabab mountain. Within a few years, the forest was sick and having wildfires, but they claimed it was natural. People say, (I don't live there) that California did the same thing. Science, and our lack of understanding of it, might be killing the Colorado River.

WTFluff asked what "religion" could have done for this. They would have done what they always do. They would have prayed, gone to church, got sick, some would have died, and most would have never noticed that something was wrong. I remember times I choose to stay out of church because the Flu was going around. But this forcing people to close their businesses, their churches, their schools, etc., did way more harm than good. I don't know either, but Trump claims that he saved almost 2 million lives because he shut down travel, and I remember, they were predicting that. But we don't know, and I think they just way overrated it. Of course, Trump has to save face by claiming it would have been much worst, but I believe that everyone was surprised that it wasn't as bad as they thought it would be.

But they claim they follow the science. But when me and my doctor were sure I had the swine-flu, and we wanted to test my daughter, they wouldn't do it. It was like they didn't want those numbers on their books. But now they want to test the whole nation for COVID. Why?

Anyway, I thought actually had it back in January, but a test showed that I didn't. Whatever breathing problems I was having, which seemed exactly like covid, were something else.

But back this guy being frustrated. It's great living in an environment where everyone thinks like you, except that you have to think like everyone else. When you enter that zone of thinking for yourself, (to whatever degree you think you are) it gets frustrating because everyone doesn't agree with you. Now, some ex-mormons find that there is a large community outside of the church that think just like them, which is why this place was so popular for a while. But any real unique thinking will have you feeling lonely and frustrated.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:57 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:35 am

Well... I, for one, would like S.P.G. to let us know what sort of answers/help "religion" has provided to help with the current pandemic?

(Sorry, I couldn't stop my fingers.)
I tell people, that if we knew what was out there, that could kill us everyday, we wouldn't leave our houses. The normal death rate in America has decreased since the pandemic started. In America, roughly 8000 people die everyday. That fell to about 6000 in the early days of the shut down. But also, people stopped dying of diseases that they shouldn't have escaped. Like people stopped dying of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, old age, etc. They all died of covid. I knew two suicides that were labeled as COVID.

Religion, IMHO, gives us that courage to brave dangerous things. I know that if we are straving, we will venture out. But what about just going to work to earn money for your family? You could die of a many things, like a car wreak, mass shooter, accidently stepping on a cat's tail, or a even an angry wife. A lot of that comes from a hope or faith that if you die in the service of your God, you will go to heaven. Even people that claim not to believe in God, still leverage their courage off of faith they developed in church.

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Random
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by Random » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:22 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:57 pm
I tell people, that if we knew what was out there, that could kill us everyday, we wouldn't leave our houses. The normal death rate in America has decreased since the pandemic started. In America, roughly 8000 people die everyday. That fell to about 6000 in the early days of the shut down. But also, people stopped dying of diseases that they shouldn't have escaped. Like people stopped dying of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, old age, etc. They all died of covid. I knew two suicides that were labeled as COVID.
Thoughtful posts. Thank you for the information and for your opinions. I think you are on to something.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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wtfluff
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by wtfluff » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:29 pm

Random wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:22 pm
SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:57 pm
I tell people, that if we knew what was out there, that could kill us everyday, we wouldn't leave our houses. The normal death rate in America has decreased since the pandemic started. In America, roughly 8000 people die everyday. That fell to about 6000 in the early days of the shut down. But also, people stopped dying of diseases that they shouldn't have escaped. Like people stopped dying of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, old age, etc. They all died of covid. I knew two suicides that were labeled as COVID.
Thoughtful posts. Thank you for the information and for your opinions. I think you are on to something.
Actually, I'd like to see where S.P.G. got those "statistics."

I've heard/seen the opposite: The actual overall death rate has increased, even though with the shutdowns, death rates have decreased in other areas, such as car accidents.

(You should start a new thread S.P.G., so we quit jacking up jfro's frustrated thread. It's probably frustrating him to him.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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Random
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Re: Really frustrated lately...

Post by Random » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:41 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:29 pm
Actually, I'd like to see where S.P.G. got those "statistics."

I've heard/seen the opposite: The actual overall death rate has increased, even though with the shutdowns, death rates have decreased in other areas, such as car accidents.

(You should start a new thread S.P.G., so we quit jacking up jfro's frustrated thread. It's probably frustrating him to him.)
I would really like the honest truth about all of this stuff. I hear "truth" and "true statistics" from both sides of the camp.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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