What To Do About The Police

Chat about a topic supported by books, TED Talks, podcasts, personal experience, philosophies of mankind mingled with humor (shout out to IOT), and maybe we’ll even do a google hangout or conference call once a month.
User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:26 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:54 am
Random wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:00 pm
Aren't firearms illegal there?
Good point. Their mass murderers have to resort to using knives, so they only kill the number of people you can count on one hand, rather than mowing them down by the dozens.
Yeah, I asked an ardent 2nd amendment promoter one time to explain to me what a mass shooting looked like when the second amendment was written. He was unwilling to follow the logic of: "Bang!" one shot with the muzzle-loader, and 5 minutes reloading while all the other people who would have been targets scattered.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 4643
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:00 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:26 am

Yeah, I asked an ardent 2nd amendment promoter one time to explain to me what a mass shooting looked like when the second amendment was written. He was unwilling to follow the logic of: "Bang!" one shot with the muzzle-loader, and 5 minutes reloading while all the other people who would have been targets scattered.
Of course, guns were only for white people. Black people were not allowed to own guns in most states until the 14th amendment, after that Jim Crow laws maintained white-only gun restrictions.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
alas
Posts: 1598
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by alas » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:20 pm

Random wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:00 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:44 am
I am surprised that these kinds of conversations never mention that the police in the UK are able to maintain law and order without the use of firearms. Most of them are armed only with batons and pepper spray. Of course, that requires them to stay fit enough to chase down a suspect, and socially strategic enough to deescalate a situation without the option of punctuating the conversation with bullets.
Aren't firearms illegal there? That means the people apprehended/arrested don't have guns, right? So, if our police were to be de-armed, it could be dangerous for them under the present circumstances.
Besides firearms being restricted, the attitude toward authority and toward community is different. In the US, the individual’s right to own guns trumps the community’s right to have safe schools for their children. An individual’s right to not wear a face mask trumps the community’s right not to get sick and die. Protecting the community trumps individual rights.

And in the US the attitude toward authority is that the individual has the right to disagree. If a highway patrol pulls you over for speeding and writes you a ticket for going 95 mph. You have the right to argue with him about how fast you were going. Try that anywhere in Europe and you will find yourself behind bars faster than you can protest their right to throw you in the slammer. And protesting authority is seen as a good thing in many circles, even if the only point is to stick it to the authorities. How many people showed up to support Cliven Bundy in breaking federal law?

Don’t believe me about arguing about a ticket? I lived in Europe and in getting a driver’s license, they warned us, people, you are not in the US. Here people do not argue with the police. They just don’t. And the quickest way to go to jail is to show disrespect to the police.

And being armed doesn’t protect police in situations where respect for authority does. My brother in law was a cop killed in the line of duty and in Great Britain, he would never have been shot over a stupid traffic ticket. A traffic ticket turned into a murder charge. All because a** hat ‘Mericans think they should be exempt from obeying the law and being arrested is an affront to their rights. Yeah, it was a Cliven Bundy type who killed him.

User avatar
Random
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Random » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:17 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:54 am
Random wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:00 pm
Aren't firearms illegal there?
Good point. Their mass murderers have to resort to using knives, so they only kill the number of people you can count on one hand, rather than mowing them down by the dozens.
My point was not how many people ordinary citizens can kill. My point was that if a law was enacted now that did not allow police to be armed with guns, they would be in danger, because as it stands right now, the ordinary citizen has access to a lot of different firearms.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

User avatar
Random
Posts: 1199
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Random » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:26 am

alas wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:20 pm
Besides firearms being restricted, the attitude toward authority and toward community is different. . . . .

And in the US the attitude toward authority is that the individual has the right to disagree. . .

Don’t believe me about arguing about a ticket? I lived in Europe and in getting a driver’s license, they warned us, people, you are not in the US. Here people do not argue with the police. They just don’t. And the quickest way to go to jail is to show disrespect to the police.

And being armed doesn’t protect police in situations where respect for authority does. My brother in law was a cop killed in the line of duty and in Great Britain, he would never have been shot over a stupid traffic ticket.
I didn't know that about Europe. In this country, I don't think we could get to that point very easily or very quickly. In fact, I think the country would have to dissolve and a new one put in its place for that mindset to be here in the United States.

P. S. I have never argued with a policeman who pulled me over or, for that matter, any policeman at all.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

User avatar
1smartdodog
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:51 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by 1smartdodog » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:13 am

All the uproar over police misses the point i think. Police react to criminals. They generally do not roam the streets looking for to cause mayhem. Those who put themselves in the position to react negatively to police scream the loudest about the injustice. I have never had a issue with the police because i don’t put myself in situations of conflict with them.

Why all the blame goes on the police baffles me. Should not the criminal get the brunt of the blame. We are creating a culture of anything goes for criminals because they are not to blame. The world is upside down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

User avatar
alas
Posts: 1598
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by alas » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:05 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:13 am
All the uproar over police misses the point i think. Police react to criminals. They generally do not roam the streets looking for to cause mayhem. Those who put themselves in the position to react negatively to police scream the loudest about the injustice. I have never had a issue with the police because i don’t put myself in situations of conflict with them.

Why all the blame goes on the police baffles me. Should not the criminal get the brunt of the blame. We are creating a culture of anything goes for criminals because they are not to blame. The world is upside down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is the point. You are white. I’ve never met you, but that statement proves you are Caucasian. The police do not go looking to hassle white people. But there are some who DO go looking to hassle blacks. And it isn’t just the racial motivated stop and frisk or the cops looking for blacks to give a bad time. There is a genuine fear of blacks that makes a white cop trigger happy when faced with an ambitious situation, like a black man pulling his ID out of his glove box. Like seriously, how much blame does an 11 year old kid playing with a toy gun in the park have. Yet the police shot him dead and checked out that he was a child with a toy after the fact. I know that I played with some pretty realistic toy guns when I was 11. I liked to play the bad guys who out smarted the cops. El Capone was a favorite, because he was good at outsmarting the cops, and we could “borrow” the violin case to hide the toy rifle. And cowboys and Indians was so “yesterday”.

The way my BIL was shot is rare, but cops are trained to go into EVERY situation as if someone will pull a gun on them just for the fun of killing them. Oh, and BIL was killed by a white guy with a hunting rifle on a rack in a pick up truck in Cliven Bundy territory. But that is NOT where cops are trained to be afraid of issuing a traffic ticket.

Police need better training at deescalating situations instead of shooting first and asking questions later.

Domestic violence situations are most dangerous for cops, but that was where I worked as a social worker. I WAS trained in deescalation. So, when the angry wife beater came after me because his wife was sick of him and he blamed me, and so he came after me. If I wasn’t trained in deescalation, I would be dead because social workers don’t get to carry guns, even though we probably need them. But a cop, either the cop, the wife, or the abuser would be dead because they are trained to shoot. And if all you are trained to do is use a hammer, then every situation is a nail. (Think if the social worker had carried a gun with he to take Josh Powell’s kids to visit him. Maybe those two boys would still be alive.)

User avatar
1smartdodog
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:51 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by 1smartdodog » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:34 am

alas wrote:
1smartdodog wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:13 am
All the uproar over police misses the point i think. Police react to criminals. They generally do not roam the streets looking for to cause mayhem. Those who put themselves in the position to react negatively to police scream the loudest about the injustice. I have never had a issue with the police because i don’t put myself in situations of conflict with them.

Why all the blame goes on the police baffles me. Should not the criminal get the brunt of the blame. We are creating a culture of anything goes for criminals because they are not to blame. The world is upside down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is the point. You are white. I’ve never met you, but that statement proves you are Caucasian. The police do not go looking to hassle white people. But there are some who DO go looking to hassle blacks. And it isn’t just the racial motivated stop and frisk or the cops looking for blacks to give a bad time. There is a genuine fear of blacks that makes a white cop trigger happy when faced with an ambitious situation, like a black man pulling his ID out of his glove box. Like seriously, how much blame does an 11 year old kid playing with a toy gun in the park have. Yet the police shot him dead and checked out that he was a child with a toy after the fact. I know that I played with some pretty realistic toy guns when I was 11. I liked to play the bad guys who out smarted the cops. El Capone was a favorite, because he was good at outsmarting the cops, and we could “borrow” the violin case to hide the toy rifle. And cowboys and Indians was so “yesterday”.

The way my BIL was shot is rare, but cops are trained to go into EVERY situation as if someone will pull a gun on them just for the fun of killing them. Oh, and BIL was killed by a white guy with a hunting rifle on a rack in a pick up truck in Cliven Bundy territory. But that is NOT where cops are trained to be afraid of issuing a traffic ticket.

Police need better training at deescalating situations instead of shooting first and asking questions later.

Domestic violence situations are most dangerous for cops, but that was where I worked as a social worker. I WAS trained in deescalation. So, when the angry wife beater came after me because his wife was sick of him and he blamed me, and so he came after me. If I wasn’t trained in deescalation, I would be dead because social workers don’t get to carry guns, even though we probably need them. But a cop, either the cop, the wife, or the abuser would be dead because they are trained to shoot. And if all you are trained to do is use a hammer, then every situation is a nail. (Think if the social worker had carried a gun with he to take Josh Powell’s kids to visit him. Maybe those two boys would still be alive.)
Do you really think sending social workers into violent situations is the best thing to do? Sometimes a hammer is needed.

I will agree deescalation is always the preferred option and cops probably need better training, but i am not going to throw them all under the bus like so many seem to be willing to do. I may need there help someday.

The notion that African Americans are under siege from cops is more hype than reality. Maybe cops do react differently, but that may be the result of the the way they are treated. Both sides need to come to terms with the root causes. To say it is all biased racism just inflames the situation.

I dont like violence. I dont watch movies that contain it. I try to treat others with respect. Maybe if the so called leaders called on their own a little more to behave and stay out of trouble, the issue would die down. Right now it is all one sided. Cops bad mayhem and bad behavior excused. So many are jus throwing gas on the fire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1103
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Linked » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:10 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:13 am
All the uproar over police misses the point i think. Police react to criminals. They generally do not roam the streets looking for to cause mayhem. Those who put themselves in the position to react negatively to police scream the loudest about the injustice. I have never had a issue with the police because i don’t put myself in situations of conflict with them.

Why all the blame goes on the police baffles me. Should not the criminal get the brunt of the blame. We are creating a culture of anything goes for criminals because they are not to blame. The world is upside down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think the issue is that the police do exactly what you are saying they don't do. Some police go looking for trouble. Honestly, the job of police is to be on the lookout for trouble. Couple that with guns, racism, and escalation and you get situations that "get out of hand" far too often. This is tragic and needs to be fixed.

Another issue is dehumanizing people as criminals. The targets of police violence will always be painted by some as a criminal unworthy of being treated humanely. In some cases those targets may be criminals. But does that mean they deserve to be treated violently by default? Also, Black people are arrested and convicted for crimes at a higher rate than White people. This could mean that Black people commit more crimes. It could also mean Black people are targeted for arrest more, and/or they are more likely to be unfairly convicted. If there is some truth to the idea that Black people are more targeted and convicted then they are more likely to be called criminals compared to White people.

Someone fairly convicted of a crime is certainly deserving of fair judgement.

I think the blame for overuse of violence by police should go right on the police. And the blame for crimes committed should go on those who commit them.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
alas
Posts: 1598
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by alas » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:04 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:34 am
alas wrote:
1smartdodog wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:13 am
All the uproar over police misses the point i think. Police react to criminals. They generally do not roam the streets looking for to cause mayhem. Those who put themselves in the position to react negatively to police scream the loudest about the injustice. I have never had a issue with the police because i don’t put myself in situations of conflict with them.

Why all the blame goes on the police baffles me. Should not the criminal get the brunt of the blame. We are creating a culture of anything goes for criminals because they are not to blame. The world is upside down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is the point. You are white. I’ve never met you, but that statement proves you are Caucasian. The police do not go looking to hassle white people. But there are some who DO go looking to hassle blacks. And it isn’t just the racial motivated stop and frisk or the cops looking for blacks to give a bad time. There is a genuine fear of blacks that makes a white cop trigger happy when faced with an ambitious situation, like a black man pulling his ID out of his glove box. Like seriously, how much blame does an 11 year old kid playing with a toy gun in the park have. Yet the police shot him dead and checked out that he was a child with a toy after the fact. I know that I played with some pretty realistic toy guns when I was 11. I liked to play the bad guys who out smarted the cops. El Capone was a favorite, because he was good at outsmarting the cops, and we could “borrow” the violin case to hide the toy rifle. And cowboys and Indians was so “yesterday”.

The way my BIL was shot is rare, but cops are trained to go into EVERY situation as if someone will pull a gun on them just for the fun of killing them. Oh, and BIL was killed by a white guy with a hunting rifle on a rack in a pick up truck in Cliven Bundy territory. But that is NOT where cops are trained to be afraid of issuing a traffic ticket.

Police need better training at deescalating situations instead of shooting first and asking questions later.

Domestic violence situations are most dangerous for cops, but that was where I worked as a social worker. I WAS trained in deescalation. So, when the angry wife beater came after me because his wife was sick of him and he blamed me, and so he came after me. If I wasn’t trained in deescalation, I would be dead because social workers don’t get to carry guns, even though we probably need them. But a cop, either the cop, the wife, or the abuser would be dead because they are trained to shoot. And if all you are trained to do is use a hammer, then every situation is a nail. (Think if the social worker had carried a gun with he to take Josh Powell’s kids to visit him. Maybe those two boys would still be alive.)
Do you really think sending social workers into violent situations is the best thing to do? Sometimes a hammer is needed.

I will agree deescalation is always the preferred option and cops probably need better training, but i am not going to throw them all under the bus like so many seem to be willing to do. I may need there help someday.

The notion that African Americans are under siege from cops is more hype than reality. Maybe cops do react differently, but that may be the result of the the way they are treated. Both sides need to come to terms with the root causes. To say it is all biased racism just inflames the situation.

I dont like violence. I dont watch movies that contain it. I try to treat others with respect. Maybe if the so called leaders called on their own a little more to behave and stay out of trouble, the issue would die down. Right now it is all one sided. Cops bad mayhem and bad behavior excused. So many are jus throwing gas on the fire.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with a lot you say here. I don’t think sending social workers into dangerous situations is the answer, but giving the cops some of the training that social workers get would help. I used to go to the cop inservice training to teach them how to help rape victims, because one of the big frustrations they have there is the day of the rape the victim is all about pressing charges, but then a week later she is mad as hell at the cops and unwilling to testify and just wants to forget it ever happened and pretend life is just the same as it was. As I explained the normal reaction to trauma in terms of the stages the victim goes through, they understood why so many did not want to testify and caught a glimpse of how they could avoid causing further trauma and increase the cooperation of their only witness. I saw these lightbulbs go on over their heads as I taught them what social workers are taught and why calling the place I worked for one of our volunteers to go be with the victim through the exam would help in the long run, even though it made one extra thing for them to worry about and have to wait for our volunteer to make it to the hospital.

So, the same group of cops that irritated me when I worked in domestic violence, were the cops I had to win over when I worked with rape victims. First person I had to convince that we were on the same team was me. But I got be be friends with the guys who coordinated the training, and saw that you average cop is a good guy trying his best to serve and protect. They really didn’t hate the victims they worked with, just were confused by the behavior of rape victims and domestic violence victims. The confusion led to hostility that my victims were experiencing from the cops. The cops were frustrated and confused by behavior they didn’t understand, so the frustration with “why don’t the victims WANT help?” was causing them to make their victims unwilling to cooperate. Vicious cycle going on, where the cops treat the victim harshly because they just KNOW she will turn around and refuse to testify, victim feels violated a second time, and of course she isn’t going to cooperate with the “nasty cops who blamed her for getting raped.”

And don’t forget that I had a brother in law killed in the line of duty as a law enforcement officer, so really I am more on the “Blue Lives Matter” side of things.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests