This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:26 pm
If you had $100,000 in the bank and we’re fined by the SEC you would be paying a $5 fine.
Crime pays, even when you get caught. HWJC (How Would Jesus Cheat).
Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:49 pm
Do these people still have no idea how the internet works? It's not closed at all, people who don't like the church's non-transparency will have a heyday with this, and the church will still think they can do business as usual while all around them people will bring this up to justify not paying tithing anymore and a whole host of other things.
The funny thing is that they have admitted that the reason for it was concern that people would stop paying tithing. Now everyone can see that they have acted illegally and immorally out of greed. They never run out of ways to shoot themselves in the foot. Gotta love it.
Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:19 am
But if someone can't or won't deny their guilt, to me it's the same as admitting it.
Seems comfortable alongside neither giving nor accepting apologies.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Over at the Mormon D&D apologetic board, they are spinning the story that this is all the SEC's fault and the Church did nothing wrong. I suspect that is the story that will be fed to the faithful, that the satan-fueled SEC falsely accused the innocent Saints.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
moksha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:46 pm
Over at the Mormon D&D apologetic board, they are spinning the story that this is all the SEC's fault and the Church did nothing wrong. I suspect that is the story that will be fed to the faithful, that the satan-fueled SEC falsely accused the innocent Saints.
Unmitigated Kool-aid drinkers....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
moksha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:46 pm
Over at the Mormon D&D apologetic board, they are spinning the story that this is all the SEC's fault and the Church did nothing wrong. I suspect that is the story that will be fed to the faithful, that the satan-fueled SEC falsely accused the innocent Saints.
Unmitigated Kool-aid drinkers....
Shame on that evil government for trying to steal sacred mormon Jebus dollars! This is Biden's fault; never would have happened with Trump or Romney in office.
I really hope this gives some jet fuel to a class action suite!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:15 pm
The funny thing is that they have admitted that the reason for it was concern that people would stop paying tithing. Now everyone can see that they have acted illegally and immorally out of greed. They never run out of ways to shoot themselves in the foot. Gotta love it.
I just realized that they FINALLY made a prophesy that came true. Testimony restored.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
The church did some really slimy stuff. No incompetency or misunderstandings here, just calculated, deliberate dishonesty for profit. These are bad people.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Did the timing of the Ensign magazine name change to Liahona have anything to do with pushing members away from googling Ensign to avoid ensign peace search results from popping up?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
The church did some really slimy stuff. No incompetency or misunderstandings here, just calculated, deliberate dishonesty for profit. These are bad people.
I listened and it was insightful, though I kinda wish it would have been done in two parts. 1) Just the bare bones legal summary of what the church did, without commentary. 2) the opinions of both the lawyer and John. It seemed like the conversation repeatedly got bogged down in “can you believe the church has so much money, why does Jesus need so much money…” discussion. That got a little old.
I would REALLY like to know more about the IRS law suit that was mentioned. He said that the SEC fine was just an afterthought compared to what the IRS is looking into. Anyone have more info on that? I hope there really is a part two to this where those who were in the know get jail time and the church gets a substantial penealty.
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:26 pm
To put this in perspective:
If you had $100,000 in the bank and we’re fined by the SEC you would be paying a $5 fine.
It says more about the lack of enforcement bite the SEC has to slap billion dollar companies with meaningful fines.
The church won’t ever admit they hid assets and this is considered a win. I’ll bet they go home tonight and celebrate with lemonade and cookies. Or as Elder Connor McGregor would say “it’s red garmie night!”
If I am understanding thing correctly, the got a $5M fine for failure to disclose a $35B investment fund. So if they make 7% interest of that money, that fund alone will earn the $5M back in 6.81 hours. Meaning that by the time the check has cleared, they have already make back their money.
Why is it down to 35 billion? Stock crash? Bad investing?
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:26 pm
To put this in perspective:
If you had $100,000 in the bank and we’re fined by the SEC you would be paying a $5 fine.
It says more about the lack of enforcement bite the SEC has to slap billion dollar companies with meaningful fines.
The church won’t ever admit they hid assets and this is considered a win. I’ll bet they go home tonight and celebrate with lemonade and cookies. Or as Elder Connor McGregor would say “it’s red garmie night!”
If I am understanding thing correctly, the got a $5M fine for failure to disclose a $35B investment fund. So if they make 7% interest of that money, that fund alone will earn the $5M back in 6.81 hours. Meaning that by the time the check has cleared, they have already make back their money.
If I am understanding thing correctly, the got a $5M fine for failure to disclose a $35B investment fund. So if they make 7% interest of that money, that fund alone will earn the $5M back in 6.81 hours. Meaning that by the time the check has cleared, they have already make back their money.
Why is it down to 35 billion? Stock crash? Bad investing?
What I have read is that $35B is the amount they have in US based stock market securities. Basically just what the SEC has jurisdiction over. That does not cover foreign based securities, or thing not traded in the stock market like land.
That is just one part of the $157 Billion total in the fund.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams
The church did some really slimy stuff. No incompetency or misunderstandings here, just calculated, deliberate dishonesty for profit. These are bad people.
I listened and it was insightful, though I kinda wish it would have been done in two parts. 1) Just the bare bones legal summary of what the church did, without commentary. 2) the opinions of both the lawyer and John. It seemed like the conversation repeatedly got bogged down in “can you believe the church has so much money, why does Jesus need so much money…” discussion. That got a little old.
I would REALLY like to know more about the IRS law suit that was mentioned. He said that the SEC fine was just an afterthought compared to what the IRS is looking into. Anyone have more info on that? I hope there really is a part two to this where those who were in the know get jail time and the church gets a substantial penealty.
I agree. The podcast was informative with a heavy dose of sarcasm. The wife listened to it and is pretty pissed off the church requires honesty while actively being dishonest.
In regards to the IRS..
David Neilson was a former ENsign Peak Advisors employee. He leaked a bunch of stuff that supported the 13F investigation and reported the church to the IRS for alleged tax fraud and violations of the IRS code around tax exempt organizations. His work helped substantiate the 13F SEC investigation and looks to still be a valid complaint.
If I am understanding thing correctly, the got a $5M fine for failure to disclose a $35B investment fund. So if they make 7% interest of that money, that fund alone will earn the $5M back in 6.81 hours. Meaning that by the time the check has cleared, they have already make back their money.
Why is it down to 35 billion? Stock crash? Bad investing?
What I have read is that $35B is the amount they have in US based stock market securities. Basically just what the SEC has jurisdiction over. That does not cover foreign based securities, or thing not traded in the stock market like land.
That is just one part of the $157 Billion total in the fund.
I thought they had more.
157000000000/16000000 members, so ever man, woman, and child has $9812? Not too bad
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
This fine is interesting because it has little to do with the rottenness of what the church leadership is doing.
The fine was related to making sure investors had accurate information about the market. Essentially the church's investment portfolio was so large that they could influence the market and other investors have a right to know that so they can invest accordingly.
But church leaders weren't hiding their investments to try to manipulate stock prices. They were hiding the money to manipulate members, their customers. It was part of a lie to those who trusted them and looked to them as prophets of God. So that they could continue to tell the same stories to believers about how tithing helps. So that members would remember when the church was poor and really needed their money and not realize that wasn't the case anymore. Church leaders were trying to keep members from realizing that the church doesn't need their money.
It's fraud. And there will be no justice. And many of the defrauded will be their most ardent defenders.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut
RFM did a 1 minute episode about how this opens the door to lawsuits against the church that can't be dodged using the 1st amendment. The church admitted that it hid financial information from members out of concern that they would stop paying tithing if they knew. They paid tithing in ignorance of the hidden information. That is fraud for financial gain and people might have good legal grounds to get their tithing back.
I saw this on another forum. Thought it was brilliant: So if a person creates 13 aliases under which they commit all their sinning, can they still get a Temple recommend in their actual name?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:44 pm
I saw this on another forum. Thought it was brilliant: So if a person creates 13 aliases under which they commit all their sinning, can they still get a Temple recommend in their actual name?
Why not just lie? It’s the same thing.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
