A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
If we look at the seniority list and relative ages, it’s highly possible that a Uchtdorf Presidency could happen.
If we assume Nelson, Eyring, and Holland all die within 2 years, then it becomes a race between Dallin and Dieter to see who lives the longest. Oaks most likely could be the next prophet purely based on health speculation (supported by pictures of Oaks shopping for shaving cream at Wal-Greens) and Uchdorfs ascension would only become a reality through Oaks death. In the end, I don’t think it matters in relation to any awe inspiring changes to the church, but golly gee I’m praying that will happen before Bednar’s turn.
First Presidency:
1. President Russell M. Nelson (Born September 9, 1924)
2. President Dallin H. Oaks (Born August 12, 1932)
3. President Henry B. Eyring (Born May 31, 1933)
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
4. Vacant
5. Jeffrey R. Holland (Born December 3, 1940)
6. Dieter F. Uchtdorf (Born November 6, 1940)
7. David A. Bednar (Born June 15, 1952)
8. Quentin L. Cook (Born September 8, 1940)
9. D. Todd Christofferson (Born January 24, 1945)
10. Neil L. Andersen (Born August 9, 1951)
11. Ronald A. Rasband (Born February 6, 1951)
12. Gary E. Stevenson (Born August 5, 1955)
13. Dale G. Renlund (Born November 13, 1952)
14. Gerrit W. Gong (Born December 23, 1953)
15. Ulisses Soares (Born October 2, 1958)
If we assume Nelson, Eyring, and Holland all die within 2 years, then it becomes a race between Dallin and Dieter to see who lives the longest. Oaks most likely could be the next prophet purely based on health speculation (supported by pictures of Oaks shopping for shaving cream at Wal-Greens) and Uchdorfs ascension would only become a reality through Oaks death. In the end, I don’t think it matters in relation to any awe inspiring changes to the church, but golly gee I’m praying that will happen before Bednar’s turn.
First Presidency:
1. President Russell M. Nelson (Born September 9, 1924)
2. President Dallin H. Oaks (Born August 12, 1932)
3. President Henry B. Eyring (Born May 31, 1933)
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
4. Vacant
5. Jeffrey R. Holland (Born December 3, 1940)
6. Dieter F. Uchtdorf (Born November 6, 1940)
7. David A. Bednar (Born June 15, 1952)
8. Quentin L. Cook (Born September 8, 1940)
9. D. Todd Christofferson (Born January 24, 1945)
10. Neil L. Andersen (Born August 9, 1951)
11. Ronald A. Rasband (Born February 6, 1951)
12. Gary E. Stevenson (Born August 5, 1955)
13. Dale G. Renlund (Born November 13, 1952)
14. Gerrit W. Gong (Born December 23, 1953)
15. Ulisses Soares (Born October 2, 1958)
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
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“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
On the other hand, this might be the last chance for Presidents Nelson and Oaks to institute new changes such as mandatory right-hand usage for the sacrament, members signing a declaration that the leaders are right even when wrong, and alternate waves for the hanky ceremony. You know, things God would want and whispers to these gentlemen in the middle of the night.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
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Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
This is disturbing.Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 2:33 pmIf we look at the seniority list and relative ages, it’s highly possible that a Uchtdorf Presidency could happen.
If we assume Nelson, Eyring, and Holland all die within 2 years, then it becomes a race between Dallin and Dieter to see who lives the longest. Oaks most likely could be the next prophet purely based on health speculation (supported by pictures of Oaks shopping for shaving cream at Wal-Greens) and Uchdorfs ascension would only become a reality through Oaks death. In the end, I don’t think it matters in relation to any awe inspiring changes to the church, but golly gee I’m praying that will happen before Bednar’s turn.
First Presidency:
1. President Russell M. Nelson (Born September 9, 1924)
2. President Dallin H. Oaks (Born August 12, 1932)
3. President Henry B. Eyring (Born May 31, 1933)
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
4. Vacant
5. Jeffrey R. Holland (Born December 3, 1940)
6. Dieter F. Uchtdorf (Born November 6, 1940)
7. David A. Bednar (Born June 15, 1952)
8. Quentin L. Cook (Born September 8, 1940)
9. D. Todd Christofferson (Born January 24, 1945)
10. Neil L. Andersen (Born August 9, 1951)
11. Ronald A. Rasband (Born February 6, 1951)
12. Gary E. Stevenson (Born August 5, 1955)
13. Dale G. Renlund (Born November 13, 1952)
14. Gerrit W. Gong (Born December 23, 1953)
15. Ulisses Soares (Born October 2, 1958)
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
Here it is in a nice, handy chart: http://www.threestory.com/apostles/
Statistically speaking, Nelson isn't likely to make it more than a couple more years. Oaks seems to be reasonably healthy for a 91 year old, so it's likely he'll ascend to the throne. Finally, he'll be able to make the changes he's long sought after.
Holland is a lot younger, at a mere 82, but he's had substantial health problems. He's reportedly doing a bit better now, but if he outlives Oaks, it may not be for long.
By that time, Eyring may not still be around for his turn. If he does get a turn, it will probably be short and uneventful.
Uchtdorf, at 83, seems relatively healthy, so he may get a shot after Holland is gone.
Then we can expect a lengthy Bednar reign. If those before him live as long as Nelson, it could be another 10 - 15 years before that happens, though.
Statistically speaking, Nelson isn't likely to make it more than a couple more years. Oaks seems to be reasonably healthy for a 91 year old, so it's likely he'll ascend to the throne. Finally, he'll be able to make the changes he's long sought after.
Holland is a lot younger, at a mere 82, but he's had substantial health problems. He's reportedly doing a bit better now, but if he outlives Oaks, it may not be for long.
By that time, Eyring may not still be around for his turn. If he does get a turn, it will probably be short and uneventful.
Uchtdorf, at 83, seems relatively healthy, so he may get a shot after Holland is gone.
Then we can expect a lengthy Bednar reign. If those before him live as long as Nelson, it could be another 10 - 15 years before that happens, though.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
OfSusan's reign will probably be uneventful from a doctrinal perspective. He'll crack down on appreciating church authority, especially his own. If he comes right after Uchtdorf, there might be some shock as the members go from someone who seems to care to someone who is much more worried about making sure everyone is doing what he says.
Here's another source for expectations of who will become prophet. It was made before Ballard passed, but it is still useful, I think:
https://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2023/1 ... 23-update/
This chart does not try to take health into account. I'm pretty sure that Uchtdorf will live longer that Holland, but surprises happen. Has there ever been a president of the church who was single, according to US law at least? I'll check later if no one knows off the top of their head.
Here's another source for expectations of who will become prophet. It was made before Ballard passed, but it is still useful, I think:
https://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2023/1 ... 23-update/
This chart does not try to take health into account. I'm pretty sure that Uchtdorf will live longer that Holland, but surprises happen. Has there ever been a president of the church who was single, according to US law at least? I'll check later if no one knows off the top of their head.
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Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
Has there ever been an apostle that did not marry within the first 9 months of becoming a widower?blazerb wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:34 pmOfSusan's reign will probably be uneventful from a doctrinal perspective. He'll crack down on appreciating church authority, especially his own. If he comes right after Uchtdorf, there might be some shock as the members go from someone who seems to care to someone who is much more worried about making sure everyone is doing what he says.
Here's another source for expectations of who will become prophet. It was made before Ballard passed, but it is still useful, I think:
https://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2023/1 ... 23-update/
This chart does not try to take health into account. I'm pretty sure that Uchtdorf will live longer that Holland, but surprises happen. Has there ever been a president of the church who was single, according to US law at least? I'll check later if no one knows off the top of their head.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
Richard G. Scott never remarried. There may be others but that's the off of the top of my head answer.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
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– Anais Nin
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Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
Why?Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:17 pmThis is disturbing.Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 2:33 pmIf we look at the seniority list and relative ages, it’s highly possible that a Uchtdorf Presidency could happen.
If we assume Nelson, Eyring, and Holland all die within 2 years, then it becomes a race between Dallin and Dieter to see who lives the longest. Oaks most likely could be the next prophet purely based on health speculation (supported by pictures of Oaks shopping for shaving cream at Wal-Greens) and Uchdorfs ascension would only become a reality through Oaks death. In the end, I don’t think it matters in relation to any awe inspiring changes to the church, but golly gee I’m praying that will happen before Bednar’s turn.
First Presidency:
1. President Russell M. Nelson (Born September 9, 1924)
2. President Dallin H. Oaks (Born August 12, 1932)
3. President Henry B. Eyring (Born May 31, 1933)
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
4. Vacant
5. Jeffrey R. Holland (Born December 3, 1940)
6. Dieter F. Uchtdorf (Born November 6, 1940)
7. David A. Bednar (Born June 15, 1952)
8. Quentin L. Cook (Born September 8, 1940)
9. D. Todd Christofferson (Born January 24, 1945)
10. Neil L. Andersen (Born August 9, 1951)
11. Ronald A. Rasband (Born February 6, 1951)
12. Gary E. Stevenson (Born August 5, 1955)
13. Dale G. Renlund (Born November 13, 1952)
14. Gerrit W. Gong (Born December 23, 1953)
15. Ulisses Soares (Born October 2, 1958)
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Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
Because a bunch of greedy bastards that are that old stink. Have you ever been to a nursing home full of old men? And what kind of business runs on a til death do you govern concept?Dirty Bird wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:33 amWhy?Mayan_Elephant wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:17 pmThis is disturbing.Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 2:33 pmIf we look at the seniority list and relative ages, it’s highly possible that a Uchtdorf Presidency could happen.
If we assume Nelson, Eyring, and Holland all die within 2 years, then it becomes a race between Dallin and Dieter to see who lives the longest. Oaks most likely could be the next prophet purely based on health speculation (supported by pictures of Oaks shopping for shaving cream at Wal-Greens) and Uchdorfs ascension would only become a reality through Oaks death. In the end, I don’t think it matters in relation to any awe inspiring changes to the church, but golly gee I’m praying that will happen before Bednar’s turn.
First Presidency:
1. President Russell M. Nelson (Born September 9, 1924)
2. President Dallin H. Oaks (Born August 12, 1932)
3. President Henry B. Eyring (Born May 31, 1933)
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
4. Vacant
5. Jeffrey R. Holland (Born December 3, 1940)
6. Dieter F. Uchtdorf (Born November 6, 1940)
7. David A. Bednar (Born June 15, 1952)
8. Quentin L. Cook (Born September 8, 1940)
9. D. Todd Christofferson (Born January 24, 1945)
10. Neil L. Andersen (Born August 9, 1951)
11. Ronald A. Rasband (Born February 6, 1951)
12. Gary E. Stevenson (Born August 5, 1955)
13. Dale G. Renlund (Born November 13, 1952)
14. Gerrit W. Gong (Born December 23, 1953)
15. Ulisses Soares (Born October 2, 1958)
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
I love this. Thanks for the laugh noble one.moksha wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:30 pmOn the other hand, this might be the last chance for Presidents Nelson and Oaks to institute new changes such as mandatory right-hand usage for the sacrament, members signing a declaration that the leaders are right even when wrong, and alternate waves for the hanky ceremony. You know, things God would want and whispers to these gentlemen in the middle of the night.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
Shared this with my wife and we are both filled with hope- Dieter as Pres. Is that a terrible thing? I do like Jeff Holland, even though I don't agree with him a lot. We had a 70 attend our ward yesterday, his daughter is in it, our ward that is, anyway the 70 said Holland is on death's doorstep but wants to dedicate the St. George temple before he dies. Made the assumption that he knows Holland quite well.
Regarding Oaks...maybe someone will push him down the stairs or something. Yikes. Probably burn in hell for that one.![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
Regarding Oaks...maybe someone will push him down the stairs or something. Yikes. Probably burn in hell for that one.
![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
December 10th is the rededication. He might make it until then.Gatorbait wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:12 pmShared this with my wife and we are both filled with hope- Dieter as Pres. Is that a terrible thing? I do like Jeff Holland, even though I don't agree with him a lot. We had a 70 attend our ward yesterday, his daughter is in it, our ward that is, anyway the 70 said Holland is on death's doorstep but wants to dedicate the St. George temple before he dies. Made the assumption that he knows Holland quite well.
Regarding Oaks...maybe someone will push him down the stairs or something. Yikes. Probably burn in hell for that one.![]()
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
Uchtdorf stands as one of those restore the Church potentialities rather than one who assists it into steady decline.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
At least you won't be alone. Give Brother Oaks my regards!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
Depends on what you mean by "restore". Or what he would restore it to.
I don't think there's much that can be done to halt it's steady decline.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
I'm secretly hoping Oaks will make it just long enough to become a senile president who loses enough inhibition to publicly reveal his deepest beliefs from the podium.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
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Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
I agree; let the $hit show begin. I better get my two year supply of popcorn ready.Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:28 amI'm secretly hoping Oaks will make it just long enough to become a senile president who loses enough inhibition to publicly reveal his deepest beliefs from the podium.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
For decades, or more, members have long dreaded, or anticipated, the ascension of the next president to the grand seat. The reality is that it's rarely made much difference. By the time the individual ascends, he's so feeble or so bound by the tradition of those that came before that they do little.
A lot of people swore they would leave the Church when ETB became president, based upon the radical things he had said for decades. Once he got there, though, little actually changed. His big accomplishment was to push for flooding the world with the BoM, something that seems to have been largely forgotten these days. Most of his time in the chair, he had little capacities.
Hinckley had by far the longest and most impactful reign of anyone in recent times, because he was still relatively young and healthy when he became president. But, his biggest lasting impacts were how many earrings can be worn and a marketing campaign around being Mormons, the latter of which has since been overturned.
Nelson has had a larger impact than many of his predecessors, but the net change is still minimal. His most significant changes were instituted early in his reign, 1) discarding Scouting, which undid the work done by his immediate predecessor, and 2) declaring the term "Mormon" to be derogatory, undoing some decent marketing work by Hinckley.
Past performance is no guarantee of future results. But in this case, the trend has been pretty clear.
Oaks probably isn't really going to have all that much impact once he likely ascends. He'll be a little more homophobic, but he'll be concerned about damaging the Church. He has stopped his radical free speech talks as he's gotten closer to the throne. Maybe he'll declare the term "Mormon" holy again.
Uchtdorf may tone down a little bit of Oaks's authoritarianism, but probably won't really make and notable changes. If Oaks doesn't reverse the "Mormon" thing, Uchtdorf might.
The only one I can see within the next couple of decades that may actually cause significant change is Bednar.
The tradition-bound, geriatric rule of the Church works to keep the Church from significant change. This has increased as the Church has become a real-estate and investment holding company supported by a significant bureaucracy.
A lot of people swore they would leave the Church when ETB became president, based upon the radical things he had said for decades. Once he got there, though, little actually changed. His big accomplishment was to push for flooding the world with the BoM, something that seems to have been largely forgotten these days. Most of his time in the chair, he had little capacities.
Hinckley had by far the longest and most impactful reign of anyone in recent times, because he was still relatively young and healthy when he became president. But, his biggest lasting impacts were how many earrings can be worn and a marketing campaign around being Mormons, the latter of which has since been overturned.
Nelson has had a larger impact than many of his predecessors, but the net change is still minimal. His most significant changes were instituted early in his reign, 1) discarding Scouting, which undid the work done by his immediate predecessor, and 2) declaring the term "Mormon" to be derogatory, undoing some decent marketing work by Hinckley.
Past performance is no guarantee of future results. But in this case, the trend has been pretty clear.
Oaks probably isn't really going to have all that much impact once he likely ascends. He'll be a little more homophobic, but he'll be concerned about damaging the Church. He has stopped his radical free speech talks as he's gotten closer to the throne. Maybe he'll declare the term "Mormon" holy again.
Uchtdorf may tone down a little bit of Oaks's authoritarianism, but probably won't really make and notable changes. If Oaks doesn't reverse the "Mormon" thing, Uchtdorf might.
The only one I can see within the next couple of decades that may actually cause significant change is Bednar.
The tradition-bound, geriatric rule of the Church works to keep the Church from significant change. This has increased as the Church has become a real-estate and investment holding company supported by a significant bureaucracy.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
THIS is the hope that I cling to for when Oaks becomes CEO.Jeffret wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:46 am...
A lot of people swore they would leave the Church when ETB became president, based upon the radical things he had said for decades. Once he got there, though, little actually changed. His big accomplishment was to push for flooding the world with the BoM, something that seems to have been largely forgotten these days. Most of his time in the chair, he had little capacities.
...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
You can surrender without a prayer...
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
You can surrender without a prayer...
Re: A Uchtdorf rise to the Prophetic throne is reasonable.
I was told that Ezra Taft met with the Brethren and they informed him that they did not want him staining the Church with his John Birch ideas while serving as the President. No idea if that was true, but he did seem to back off his crazy pronouncements while he still had his faculties.Jeffret wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:46 amA lot of people swore they would leave the Church when ETB became president, based upon the radical things he had said for decades. Once he got there, though, little actually changed. His big accomplishment was to push for flooding the world with the BoM, something that seems to have been largely forgotten these days. Most of his time in the chair, he had little capacities.
David O. McKay should have read the riot act to Ezra Taft many times over.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
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