How long can I lie ?

[Conman52]

Hi Nomies : Happy New Year to all. Just want to touch on something bothering me I have been pimo for many years but I still attend and participate in the tscc for Mrs Conman52. I just don't ever see the light at the end of the super loooong tunnel!! No end in sight . I have made my case against the church many many times to her she just is not AT ALL FAZED !! I am close to being the best at being undetected as a non believer just don't know when the end will ever come at being in the tscc. Anybody have any advice ????

[Mayan_Elephant]

Hi Nomies : Happy New Year to all. Just want to touch on something bothering me I have been pimo for many years but I still attend and participate in the tscc for Mrs Conman52. I just don't ever see the light at the end of the super loooong tunnel!! No end in sight . I have made my case against the church many many times to her she just is not AT ALL FAZED !! I am close to being the best at being undetected as a non believer just don't know when the end will ever come at being in the tscc. Anybody have any advice ????

Are you also PIMO of your marriage? Or all in? If you’re all in on your marriage, just move the church into a compartment like a sports team you dislike and roll with it.

[alas]

I agree with the elephant. It isn’t fair to your wife to expect her to change her beliefs. She may never agree with you, so all you can really expect is to be PIMO for the rest of your marriage/life, or to demand that you be allowed to stop attending. So, weigh the cost of keeping your wife happy by attending with her, or the cost of stopping attending and be out. But I would suggest that neither of you will really be happy as long as you are holding your breath hoping she will “see the light” and decide to leave the church with you. So, if you are fully committed to the marriage, and being PIMO is the only way to keep her happy, then PIMO is your only realistic option. You are not married to HER f you are hoping to change her. Does that make sense? You are currently only married to who you wish she would be, and she is apparently married to who she wishes you would be. Does she know you are mentally out? or is she thinking that if she makes you attend, that you will “see the light” and believe again?

If I remember correctly you have been back and forth on this issue with her before, with her threatening divorce if you stop attending or get all the way out. Didn’t you cancel your membership once and then get rebaptised because she demanded it?

So, have you ever really talked to her about the idea that you do not believe and most likely never will, or is your believing one condition she demands to stay married? I am not really sure where you are, except that you are not happy with being PIMO. I know for years I did not dare tell my husband that I didn’t believe the church was what it claims. I waited until I was willing to have him get the divorce because I just *could not stand it any longer* before I told him I was never going back to church. So, if accepting divorce is not where you are at, I understand not telling her. I hit the breaking point, and took the risk that he could accept me as a nonbeliever, and for me, it worked out. But you have to decide for yourself what is best for you and risks you are willing to take.

But as someone who has done marriage counseling, hoping your spouse will change something as basic as religious belief just is not a good way to have a stable marriage. Either accept she is Mormon and love her for it, or love her in spite of it. But if you love her, then love who she IS, not who you wish she was, because that is not love. You are the only one you can change. So, how are you going to change you to be happy? Let me repeat, you are the only one that you can change. So, love her for who she is or accept that you do not love her. If now you only love who you wish she was, then learn how to love who she is.

I hope I am not being too harsh on you, if so, just tell me to stuff it.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Yep. That is correct. Lots of people in marriages have unique hobbies and differences. Marriages survive that. Marriages dont often survive ultimatums to change. It’s possible. It’s improbable.

[Conman52]

Thanks Alas & Elephant you both have great points. I have resolved to be pimo to continue the marriage now at 45 years. I do think.it is a small price to pay for a lifetime of commitment besides your average rank & file members are good people. I know others are in my same situation so I will go with this saying that I got from someone else on this board: "I love my wife more than I hate the church."

[Hagoth]

...hoping your spouse will change something as basic as religious belief just is not a good way to have a stable marriage. Either accept she is Mormon and love her for it, or love her in spite of it. But if you love her, then love who she IS, not who you wish she was, because that is not love. You are the only one you can change. So, how are you going to change you to be happy? Let me repeat, you are the only one that you can change. So, love her for who she is or accept that you do not love her. If now you only love who you wish she was, then learn how to love who she is.

I hope I am not being too harsh on you, if so, just tell me to stuff it.

I agree, alas, but on the other hand, isn't this a 2-way relationship? Shouldn't she be expected to love Conman for who he is, and not only when he pretends to be who she wants him to be? Must he go on PIMOing his life away so Mrs. Conman just pretend all is well in Zion? I tried that until it was destroying my mental health. Of course the believing member of the marriage has a massive support mechanism telling them that they are in the right and the dissenter is broken and deceived, but sometime maybe they have to have their their simple-minded fantasy world challenged, level up a little, and deal with reality. When I finally unloaded on Mrs. Hagoth about my faith collapse I got the standard "I would never have married you if I had know this would happen." I thought it was over, and things got pretty rough. But we both grew up a little. Now it has turned into "our marriage is so much more important than a religion." She still believes in Mormonism (although more nuanced than before) and I still don't believe, and neither of us has any expectation of fixing the other. We both participate in each other's spiritual lives in supportive ways where it makes sense to us. I still have a Mormon-style prayer with her every night, and I still bless sacrament at home for her when she asks for it. She recognizes that I have become a healthier, better and more spiritual version of myself by doing things that are NOT in the LDS program.

The question for you, Conman, is in your subject line. How long can you lie? Only you can answer that. If you can keep up the lie and enjoy a happy life, then by all means keep it up. If you are tied up in knots and gritting your teeth while slowly dying inside from raging epistemological ulcers, maybe some difficult course correction is in order.

ME's comment about compartmentalizing your religion can certainly work if all that's required is to show up, dress right, and smile and nod at the right times. I've known people who have done that very well and been pretty dang happy. Will that satisfy your wife? OR are you expected to hold a recommend and attend the temple frequently? Give prophetic blessings? Pay a full tithe? Never allow yourself to sip an iced tea? Perform life-sucking callings? Is there a couples' mission on the horizon? There is a big difference between just showing up versus surrendering yourself to fullfilling everyone else's expectations for you.

I think you should be able to expect that she can change... just a little. Just enough to make her world a little bit bigger to make room for the idea that people she loves can't always exactly the person she needs them to be. The real fantasy here is that Mormonism expects us to live an entire life without every gaining new perspectives. That is asking us to be 5-year olds for 90 years. It's not realistic. A wise man once said, "if you still believe the same things at 50 that you believed when you were 20 you have wasted 30 years."

You say she is unfazed by anything that makes a case against the church. I assume that means as long as you behave as if you don't you don't really believe those negative things about the church either. What would happen if you did actually behave according to what you do/don't believe?

[Mayan_Elephant]

The real fantasy here is that Mormonism expects us to live an entire life without every gaining new perspectives.

Everything you said is fair game, thoughtful, and worth considering. To exclaim your point, I have highlighted one part that stood out to me.

Mormonism would be somewhat manageable with the fantasy you described. However, they take it to a whole 'nuther level and make it an entire eternity and then a whole 'nuther level of nuts and say you and I agreed to this and now have some form of eternal arrears debt for what we said before we got here and for what Jesus done did for us because of what we done said.

I say Jesus was a sucker.

On the PIMO and NOM stuff - you are correct, Hagoth. And the Conman should know you are correct. Living a lie is not living. Living inauthentically is not living. Living as a fraud is fatal. The soul may die first, or it may not. But make no mistake here - it is fatal.

The trick for the Conman is not to survive lying. The key is to grant other people their differences and not get wrapped up in insignificant bullshit. People can stay tangentially connected to the church circle without going all in. I have a friend who is the ward librarian and he takes it very seriously. I had no idea they even had libraries any more. But he loves this job and he goes to church and keeps an inventory of stuff. He also smokes Pall Mall's and would rather buy a pack of 100's than give a nickel to that church.

Everyone seems to be making similar points to Conman, with different perspectives on the how. Lying is NOT the solution. Ultimatums are not the solution. Wearing a costume is not the solution. Having a wife or friends that chose the church is something Conman may not change. I have a mom that chose the church and I can't change that. And she is awesome. We roll with it like that.

[Hagoth]

The trick for the Conman is not to survive lying. The key is to grant other people their differences and not get wrapped up in insignificant bullshit. People can stay tangentially connected to the church circle without going all in. I have a friend who is the ward librarian and he takes it very seriously. I had no idea they even had libraries any more. But he loves this job and he goes to church and keeps an inventory of stuff. He also smokes Pall Mall's and would rather buy a pack of 100's than give a nickel to that church.

I think your friend is doing it right. He is participating in a sincere way on his own terms and requiring the rest of the ward to make room for him.

Two dear friends of mine are a married gay couple who are fully active in their ward. The ward loves and supports them. You would understand why if you met them; talk about big hearts and bright countenances! They are far from Utah in a more liberal environment, and they admit that they probably couldn't pull that off here, but good on them for sticking up for themselves and making it work.

One of my best friends is the founder of The Divine Assembly, the mushroom sacrament church. 90% of the membership are Mormon. He has decided if the church is afraid to use the word Mormon, he should take it upon himself to keep the name alive, for example, by hosting the Mormon Psychedelics Conference every year. The entire power structure of the LDS church depends on the members surrendering their identities to a bunch of bullies with imaginary authority, but members really do have the power to just step up and be themselves and force everyone else to deal with it, but the pressure to not do so is enormous. Most chose to leave, rather than make a stand, which is totally understandable. I certainly couldn't stay, but I'll be damned if they think they can make me walk away from good friendships because I don't believe in angels with gold plates.

[alas]

...hoping your spouse will change something as basic as religious belief just is not a good way to have a stable marriage. Either accept she is Mormon and love her for it, or love her in spite of it. But if you love her, then love who she IS, not who you wish she was, because that is not love. You are the only one you can change. So, how are you going to change you to be happy? Let me repeat, you are the only one that you can change. So, love her for who she is or accept that you do not love her. If now you only love who you wish she was, then learn how to love who she is.

I hope I am not being too harsh on you, if so, just tell me to stuff it.

I agree, alas, but on the other hand, isn't this a 2-way relationship? Shouldn't she be expected to love Conman for who he is, and not only when he pretends to be who she wants him to be? Must he go on PIMOing his life away so Mrs. Conman just pretend all is well in Zion? I tried that until it was destroying my mental health. Of course the believing member of the marriage has a massive support mechanism telling them that they are in the right and the dissenter is broken and deceived, but sometime maybe they have to have their their simple-minded fantasy world challenged, level up a little, and deal with reality. When I finally unloaded on Mrs. Hagoth about my faith collapse I got the standard "I would never have married you if I had know this would happen." I thought it was over, and things got pretty rough. But we both grew up a little. Now it has turned into "our marriage is so much more important than a religion." She still believes in Mormonism (although more nuanced than before) and I still don't believe, and neither of us has any expectation of fixing the other. We both participate in each other's spiritual lives in supportive ways where it makes sense to us. I still have a Mormon-style prayer with her every night, and I still bless sacrament at home for her when she asks for it. She recognizes that I have become a healthier, better and more spiritual version of myself by doing things that are NOT in the LDS program.

The question for you, Conman, is in your subject line. How long can you lie? Only you can answer that. If you can keep up the lie and enjoy a happy life, then by all means keep it up. If you are tied up in knots and gritting your teeth while slowly dying inside from raging epistemological ulcers, maybe some difficult course correction is in order.

ME's comment about compartmentalizing your religion can certainly work if all that's required is to show up, dress right, and smile and nod at the right times. I've known people who have done that very well and been pretty dang happy. Will that satisfy your wife? OR are you expected to hold a recommend and attend the temple frequently? Give prophetic blessings? Pay a full tithe? Never allow yourself to sip an iced tea? Perform life-sucking callings? Is there a couples' mission on the horizon? There is a big difference between just showing up versus surrendering yourself to fullfilling everyone else's expectations for you.

I think you should be able to expect that she can change... just a little. Just enough to make her world a little bit bigger to make room for the idea that people she loves can't always exactly the person she needs them to be. The real fantasy here is that Mormonism expects us to live an entire life without every gaining new perspectives. That is asking us to be 5-year olds for 90 years. It's not realistic. A wise man once said, "if you still believe the same things at 50 that you believed when you were 20 you have wasted 30 years."

You say she is unfazed by anything that makes a case against the church. I assume that means as long as you behave as if you don't you don't really believe those negative things about the church either. What would happen if you did actually behave according to what you do/don't believe?

100% agree that it goes both ways. That was why I asked if conman had talked with his wife about the fact that he does not believe and is unlikely to ever believe again. No matter which side of the religion question one is on, there is damage to the marriage if the partner expects them to change, rather than accepting and loving them for who they truly are. But conman can’t make his wife accept his unbelief. So, in talking to him, I talked about what he does have control over. He has control over accepting who his wife really is and loving her as she is, not whether or not his wife is willing to love him for who he really is. So, focus on what we can control and let our spouses be responsible for what they control.

Now, he is responsible for judging if his wife can accept him before he takes a risk to be fully honest with her. Some spouses will divorce over lack of belief and some will accept it, maybe only eventually, but they will accept it. For example, I did not think my husband would accept it for the first some 30 years of our marriage, and I was unsure how much exactly I didn’t believe anyway, so I kept my doubts to myself. Then, some crap happened and I just couldn’t ignore the doubts any longer, and I realized I could not stay in the emotionally abusive and sexist environment any longer. So, then I told my husband I was going inactive, for good, and no longer accepted or respected the church’s so called authority. Even at that point, and some almost 40 years of marriage, he did consider divorce, but decided against. So, sometimes, your spouse is not capable of really loving you for who you are, and you have to decide if staying with that kind of “living a lie” is worth it or not. But you don’t control their ability to accept you for who you really are. They do. Sure, it is “fair” if it really goes both ways. But that is not under your control.

So, I talked to conman about what is his to decide and what is under his control. He can love his wife for who she is and still choose “living a lie” as his best option because he doesn’t control his wife’s ability to accept his unbelief. Only his ability to love her as best he can.

Only the Mormon church thinks you can control your spouse’s choices.

[wtfluff]

...
I have a friend who is the ward librarian and he takes it very seriously. I had no idea they even had libraries any more. But he loves this job and he goes to church and keeps an inventory of stuff. He also smokes Pall Mall's and would rather buy a pack of 100's than give a nickel to that church.
...

I love this person ^

I sure hope he takes Pall Mall breaks right outside the chapel doors on occasion.




Back to the original title of the thread, Conman: "How long can I lie?"

Who are you lying to wen it comes to your church attendance?

Your wife? She knows you don't believe, right?

Other congregants? Do you tell them you believe?

The bishop?

The bishop's boss?


If you're just attending to hold your wife's hand for an hour during the boring group meeting, is that lying?

If you're being bugged about a calling - tell whoever is bugging you that your calling is to hold your wife's hand for an hour during a boring meeting each week.





Truth be told: LDS-Inc.™ is coming up on 200 years of lying to their adherents. (Just a thought. A pretty useless thought, but I couldn't stop my fingers.)

[Red Ryder]

Love the commentary.

Let me simplify and share how I reframed this.

If I wasn’t born Mormon, let’s just say for this example I would be a catholic.

As a catholic, I would attend church with my family. Sit by them on the pew. Participate in milestone events. Celebrate Easter and Christmas. And live my life as I see fit. Not worried about the finer details of obedience, worshipping the Pope or living my life with my identity 100% focused on my Catholicism.

Once I considered this framework, I took the same approach with my Mormonism.

I live my life 99.9% Mormon free. 0.1% as needed.

Does this mean I live a lie? Not really. It means I focus my life on 99.9% of things MORE important that the church. I can also argue that I’m just as honest as the church is with me.

I suggest you stop worrying about “living a lie” and just start “living a life.”

[Mayan_Elephant]

I'll be damned if they think they can make me walk away from good friendships because I don't believe in angels with gold plates.

Neither will they make you walk away from your family. Nor will it be because of a corporate entity in the angel business. You are correct, sir.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Only the Mormon church thinks you can control your spouse’s choices.

Great points regarding control and limits. All good. Very good.

On the above point, however, I disagree. Controlling a spouse's choices is not unique to the Mormon church. It is a form of control that has been institutionalized and it is a form of control that you have described in multiple contexts. It is not unique to the Hell's Angel's and their so-called Property, and it is not unique to religions. I have seen legal forms of spousal control in LLC agreements. I have seen it promoted in media campaigns. It was exclaimed in the lockdowns and vaccine mandates. It happens in political circles to an extreme. It exists in banking agreements. Family courts are clogged up with spousal control issues. It is, in my opinion, at a crisis level in our communities.

The best we can do, for now, is to heed your advice and observations at a personal family level and not be controlling. I don't think trying to change the institutions is our best move.

[Mayan_Elephant]

If you're just attending to hold your wife's hand for an hour during the boring group meeting, is that lying?

I won't ever have to go to church on a regular basis. But if I was in that position, I would have a blast with it. Maybe I would get a wardrobe that looked like it was straight off the set of Peaky Blinders, including the hats, and wear that every week. I would absolutely make it worthwhile, on my terms. No doubt about it. I might even go every week and clean the toilets, sinks and mirrors during sacrament meeting.

I was in the New Orleans First ward during college. It was a hoot. One day, during sacrament meeting, someone started cooking breakfast in the kitchen and the entire chapel smelled like bacon and eggs. The joint needs more of that.

[Conman52]

So after all the great posts I think I will just keep being the captain of my own ship !! I only speak in sacrament if I feel like it, don't take a calling go to the temple once or twice a year maybe substitute teach a class once in a while (Christ centered of course) and don't worry about any lies because the tscc is lying to us and have been lying for nearly 200 years. I still drink my coffee at my part time job and am lovin life after 60 !! God bless

[moksha]

I'll be damned if they think they can make me walk away from good friendships because I don't believe in angels with gold plates.

Neither will they make you walk away from your family. Nor will it be because of a corporate entity in the angel business. You are correct, sir.

Unfortunately, families have broken up over changes in religious belief and it seems to happen in high-demand religions.

[alas]

Only the Mormon church thinks you can control your spouse’s choices.

Great points regarding control and limits. All good. Very good.

On the above point, however, I disagree. Controlling a spouse's choices is not unique to the Mormon church. It is a form of control that has been institutionalized and it is a form of control that you have described in multiple contexts. It is not unique to the Hell's Angel's and their so-called Property, and it is not unique to religions. I have seen legal forms of spousal control in LLC agreements. I have seen it promoted in media campaigns. It was exclaimed in the lockdowns and vaccine mandates. It happens in political circles to an extreme. It exists in banking agreements. Family courts are clogged up with spousal control issues. It is, in my opinion, at a crisis level in our communities.

The best we can do, for now, is to heed your advice and observations at a personal family level and not be controlling. I don't think trying to change the institutions is our best move.

Notice the wink face after that comment. Means I was kidding. Sarcasm. Way too many people think especially husbands can or should control their spouse. Or that parents should control their kids. Wives can make their home so lovely that their drunk husband will become a saint. Wives cause their husbands to do bad stuff. You don’t know how many of my professional hours were spent on this one topic. Wives thinking they were responsible for their husbands beating them. Wives thinking they were responsible for their husband affair. I avoided counseling situation where I had to inform idiots they had no right to control their spouse, (male or female idiots,) but I did have some. But mostly I had women who thought they somehow magically caused any bad behavior. Right about the time I was burning out professionally, I wanted a big sign for my office that said, “You did not make him do anything! His choice.” So I could stop saying it.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Only the Mormon church thinks you can control your spouse’s choices.

Great points regarding control and limits. All good. Very good.

On the above point, however, I disagree. Controlling a spouse's choices is not unique to the Mormon church. It is a form of control that has been institutionalized and it is a form of control that you have described in multiple contexts. It is not unique to the Hell's Angel's and their so-called Property, and it is not unique to religions. I have seen legal forms of spousal control in LLC agreements. I have seen it promoted in media campaigns. It was exclaimed in the lockdowns and vaccine mandates. It happens in political circles to an extreme. It exists in banking agreements. Family courts are clogged up with spousal control issues. It is, in my opinion, at a crisis level in our communities.

The best we can do, for now, is to heed your advice and observations at a personal family level and not be controlling. I don't think trying to change the institutions is our best move.

Notice the wink face after that comment. Means I was kidding. Sarcasm. Way too many people think especially husbands can or should control their spouse. Or that parents should control their kids. Wives can make their home so lovely that their drunk husband will become a saint. Wives cause their husbands to do bad stuff. You don’t know how many of my professional hours were spent on this one topic. Wives thinking they were responsible for their husbands beating them. Wives thinking they were responsible for their husband affair. I avoided counseling situation where I had to inform idiots they had no right to control their spouse, (male or female idiots,) but I did have some. But mostly I had women who thought they somehow magically caused any bad behavior. Right about the time I was burning out professionally, I wanted a big sign for my office that said, “You did not make him do anything! His choice.” So I could stop saying it.

oh fer cryin out loud. I am sorry. I truly don't know how to read those damn faces. Sorry. Apologies.

[moksha]

If you love me you will support the will of Aslan and fight for the right of Susan and Peter to sit on the throne at Cair Paravel. Otherwise, you need to climb back out the wardrobe door and return to Earth!!! You must be true blue to Narnia (TBN) or else.

[Mayan_Elephant]

If you love me you will support the will of Aslan and fight for the right of Susan and Peter to sit on the throne at Cair Paravel. Otherwise, you need to climb back out the wardrobe door and return to Earth!!! You must be true blue to Narnia (TBN) or else.

I don't get it.