Teaching the wrong stuff

[alas]

I am reading a book about mass shooters and it is heavy enough I have to take it in bits and pieces. It helps that I have a degree in psychology. It talks about school shooters, but also those who go into work places, stores, churches. It has been analyzing what it is about American society that we have so many more than our share, and now is into what it is about the shooter that triggers them to open fire and kill whoever is there.

But it struck me that people around the shooter often, almost always, saw signs that the person was supper distressed, but they didn’t know what to do. And that most mentally ill are not violent, and that many shooters are not recognized as mentally ill anyway. So, the republicans thoughts and prayers are no more helpful than the current “it isn’t guns, it’s mental illness. And I thought about the active shooter drills they have in schools and some workplaces, and how the book says this is just not helping, and arming teachers and things like that won’t help.

Our society is teaching the wrong things. Shooters are pretty much normal people who were probably abused as kids and are under impossible stress now. And we as a society are teaching kids to hide but not teaching teachers how to recognize the student who is falling apart. We are not funding enough school counselors. We are not teaching students how to recognize if they are depressed and we are not teaching them how to ask for help when they start fantasizing about killing people. We are using mass shooters to promote more guns and if the gun is going to be where the teacher can get it, so can an angry and falling apart student. Women teachers will not carry a gun in a holster, but it will be in a desk or her purse. We are not teaching kids to recognize problems in another student. We are focusing too much time on math and spelling and not enough on “if your parents are beating you” and “if your friend is talking suicide” and “if you can’t deal with life.” Because we don’t want to scare kids, but we can teach them to hide under desks and that doesn’t scare them.

Then it struck me that the church taught me all the wrong things too. And it taught my mother the wrong things, and so many women. It tells us we are children of God, then it talks about God as if he is an abusive father. It teaches women to be stay at home mothers, and never a word about the possibility that your husband could be abusive and what to do if he is. It teaches chastity and modesty as if women are responsible for men’s thoughts and actions, and never a word about the possibility of rape. And the things taught about chastity teach very strongly that if rape were to happen, well it isn’t really rape because the female did something to indicate she wanted it. And although the atonement covers all sin, well if you have sex or are raped it isn’t covered because you are damaged forever. Nothing will ever make you clean again and you are better off dead. It taught me to obey my parents, with no possibility that sexual abuse could happen, and maybe I shouldn’t obey THAT. The church taught me that the sinner is forgiven, (unless it is sexual and a woman) but never that God might help or love those who are damaged by someone else’s sin. They taught me that God’s love for me was just like my parents love for me. Well, my parents needed me to love them, but were too damaged to love anyone else. So, God loves me by using me for his own selfish needs, just like my parents. The church does seem to operate that way too, uses people for it’s own selfish needs. The church taught me what was good for the church, not what was good for me. I could go on for pages about all the unhelpful stuff I was taught and how I wasn’t taught what I actually needed.

So, what things were you taught that were opposite what you needed?

[Dirty Bird]

I am reading a book about mass shooters and it is heavy enough I have to take it in bits and pieces. It helps that I have a degree in psychology. It talks about school shooters, but also those who go into work places, stores, churches. It has been analyzing what it is about American society that we have so many more than our share, and now is into what it is about the shooter that triggers them to open fire and kill whoever is there.

But it struck me that people around the shooter often, almost always, saw signs that the person was supper distressed, but they didn’t know what to do. And that most mentally ill are not violent, and that many shooters are not recognized as mentally ill anyway. So, the republicans thoughts and prayers are no more helpful than the current “it isn’t guns, it’s mental illness. And I thought about the active shooter drills they have in schools and some workplaces, and how the book says this is just not helping, and arming teachers and things like that won’t help.

Our society is teaching the wrong things. Shooters are pretty much normal people who were probably abused as kids and are under impossible stress now. And we as a society are teaching kids to hide but not teaching teachers how to recognize the student who is falling apart. We are not funding enough school counselors. We are not teaching students how to recognize if they are depressed and we are not teaching them how to ask for help when they start fantasizing about killing people. We are using mass shooters to promote more guns and if the gun is going to be where the teacher can get it, so can an angry and falling apart student. Women teachers will not carry a gun in a holster, but it will be in a desk or her purse. We are not teaching kids to recognize problems in another student. We are focusing too much time on math and spelling and not enough on “if your parents are beating you” and “if your friend is talking suicide” and “if you can’t deal with life.” Because we don’t want to scare kids, but we can teach them to hide under desks and that doesn’t scare them.

Then it struck me that the church taught me all the wrong things too. And it taught my mother the wrong things, and so many women. It tells us we are children of God, then it talks about God as if he is an abusive father. It teaches women to be stay at home mothers, and never a word about the possibility that your husband could be abusive and what to do if he is. It teaches chastity and modesty as if women are responsible for men’s thoughts and actions, and never a word about the possibility of rape. And the things taught about chastity teach very strongly that if rape were to happen, well it isn’t really rape because the female did something to indicate she wanted it. And although the atonement covers all sin, well if you have sex or are raped it isn’t covered because you are damaged forever. Nothing will ever make you clean again and you are better off dead. It taught me to obey my parents, with no possibility that sexual abuse could happen, and maybe I shouldn’t obey THAT. The church taught me that the sinner is forgiven, (unless it is sexual and a woman) but never that God might help or love those who are damaged by someone else’s sin. They taught me that God’s love for me was just like my parents love for me. Well, my parents needed me to love them, but were too damaged to love anyone else. So, God loves me by using me for his own selfish needs, just like my parents. The church does seem to operate that way too, uses people for it’s own selfish needs. The church taught me what was good for the church, not what was good for me. I could go on for pages about all the unhelpful stuff I was taught and how I wasn’t taught what I actually needed.

So, what things were you taught that were opposite what you needed?

It isn’t guns, it is mental illness! If it's guns, please explain to me how I and dozens of my friends were able to go hunting at 4:30am in the morning, then take our guns to school and store them in a gun rack on the back of our truck window for everyone to clearly see? Yes, dozens of Remington and Mossberg shot guns on school property, clearly visible for everyone to see with their eyes, all they had to do is walk down the isles of the parking lot. If weapons are the problem, tell me why I and dozens of my friends were allowed to carry pocket knives inside the school. We would open them during class and have a contest to see who could get their knife to stick in the ceiling tiles first. Yes, we would throw a knife with an open blade toward the ceiling to get it to stick. These actions took place during the late 80s to early 90s. Have guns changed since then? No! The dreaded AR15 with its scary 30 round banana clip existed back then.

Arming teachers will not only help with school shootings, it will eliminate school shootings. You are completely wrong. First, let me ask you, what is a police officer? Is a police officer human? When a police officer puts on a uniform, badge and gun, does that police officer become a super hero with super human strength? No. Do you understand that most police officers in the USA don't know how to properly handle a school shooting? Do you understand that 95% of cops are really terrible with a gun? The reason you are probably OK with a cop running into a school with a gun to stop a mass shooter is because you see the police officer as someone with "authority"! But I'm here to tell you most cops aren't anymore able to stop a mass shooting than a armed teacher that has been trained. In fact, a teacher with a gun would stop a mass shooter before the cops left the Krispy Kreme parking lot. Why can't people understand this fact? Cops are not special! This is really simple math! Let me explain. Today, because liberals are scared of guns, we make schools gun free zones and that allows a mass shooter to be the only person in the school the only person with a gun. Then, after 3 to 10 minutes , hopefully a bunch of other armed people will enter the school with guns to stop the guy with gun. That 3 to 10 minutes is the crucial time to save lives. The liberal point of view is to allow children to die during those 3 to 10 minutes while cops make a game plan on the outside of the school, while the conservative point of view is to arm teachers so the good guys and gals have guns on the inside of the school, so the bad guy can be shot as early as possible. Remember! The cops on the outside of the school want to shoot the guy with a gun as early as possible to, but they have to travel to the school, organize, enter the school then hunt the guy down. Armed teachers could simply barricade the classroom doors and protect the children, shooting the guy if he attempts to come in the classroom. An armed teacher is no different than an armed police officer. Police aren't super heroes.

We don't need more school counselors. In fact, you believing we need more school counselors kinda proves that it isn’t guns and that it is mental illness. Why do we need more school counselors if guns are the problem?

Oh!! Women teachers will most definitely carry a gun to protect the students they teach! Do female FBI agents carry guns? Do female municipal cops carry guns? If a mass shooting occurs in your neighborhood and the first police officer who arrives to the school is a female officer, are you saying she isn't mentally or physically able to enter the school with her gun drawn without a male officer accompanying her? Because that's kinda what it sounds like to me. What if we arm teachers, including females, and deputize them? Make them an official LEO that has taken a official training course from the FBI that teaches them better than how local municipal cops are trained? Meaning, they have the same powers as a municipal cop. What would be wrong with that?

You say the church taught you all the wrong things? I don't feel that way at all. Even though I'm not a member anymore, I appreciate many positive teaching of the church that have benefited me and my family during the past 30 years I have raised my children. My kids no almost nothing about the church I grew up in, but they recognize how lucky they are that they grew up in a home where their mother and father didn't and still don't drink or do drugs. My kids have never prayed before eating, or actually said a prayer that I know of, they have never been to a church service. But my wife and I have chosen to pass along many of the positive teachings found within the church to our kids even though they don't realize that's where those teachings came from. My kids don't drink, don't smoke, don't have tattoos, don't dress immodest. Not everything about the church is bad.

So you ask what things were you taught that were opposite of what you needed. I would say that me personally, I don't need organized religion. Has nothing to do with Mormonism. I don't need organized religion, any of them. I appreciate what I learned from Mormonism, but I have trained myself to focus on the positive aspects from my Mormon experience. Again! I have trained myself to focus on the positive. That's very important to understand. Because in today's society we tend to elevate people who concentrate on negativity. People like RFM or John Dehlin.

[alas]

Dirty bird, read the book. It gave the statistics to say why it is BOTH guns and lack of mental health support. And it named all kinds of things that your swear word Republicans fight such as better mental health programs for the poor and in schools. If it is REALLY mental health, why are the republicans putting religious chaplains in schools instead of trained mental health counselors?

I don’t argue with the uninformed. Read the book. Just go on Amazon and look for a new book out on mass shootings, read it through several times until you actually understand it, then come back and we can talk.

[Dirty Bird]

Dirty bird, read the book. It gave the statistics to say why it is BOTH guns and lack of mental health support. And it named all kinds of things that your swear word Republicans fight such as better mental health programs for the poor and in schools. If it is REALLY mental health, why are the republicans putting religious chaplains in schools instead of trained mental health counselors?

I don’t argue with the uninformed. Read the book. Just go on Amazon and look for a new book out on mass shootings, read it through several times until you actually understand it, then come back and we can talk.

Do you realize you sound exactly like a Mormon? First you tell me to read the book, possibly several times if need be. Mormons tell people to just "read the book", then you insinuate I'm uninformed, just like a Mormon who believes everyone who's not a Mormon is uninformed because Mormons are the only ones with the full truth.

So someone who has a different opinion and expresses it is arguing in your opinion? If that is what you believe, again, you are acting exactly like one of my Mormon family members. Maybe you're just looking for posters to agree with you? Is that it?


Let's use common sense! Are 5 police officers with guns who are on the street patrolling in their cruzers more likely to stop a mass shooter before he kills dozens of children inside a school, or would it be more likely that 5 armed teachers IN THE SCHOOL that have been trained how to shoot a mass shooter would be faster and more capable to hunt down and kill the asshole? You see, progressives like yourself won't answer this question truthfully because answering it truthfully means the insane no gun narrative the progressives push would fall apart.

[HappierNow]

Thanks for your thought-provoking post, alas, and also for the helpful communication tips in your other thread.

Marriage is one area where the church teaches all the wrong stuff. In the 80’s and 90’s, the church’s programs for teens and young adults put an enormous focus on avoiding pre-marital sex and getting married in the temple, rather than civilly, or even worse, cohabitating. But there was zero attention on relationship skills, what a healthy relationship looks like, how to discern if someone is compatible with you, signs that a potential spouse doesn’t care about your well-being and is only in the relationship for what they can get from you, signs that a potential spouse will be manipulative, controlling, abusive, or addicted. The church totally ignored the quality of the dating or marital relationship and focused on stuff that doesn’t really matter for people’s long-term well-being. The only exception is that their focus on abstinence before marriage does protect from unwanted pregnancy and STI’s, but a good sex education course could do that as well.

On the issue of guns: when I studied at a university in Sweden, one of my Swedish classmates had a mental health crisis and threatened a school shooting. The university got the student mental health resources, moved our courses entirely online, and reassured the rest of the class that the student couldn’t get access to guns like kids in the U.S. can. Like you say, the issue is both mental health and gun access.

[alas]

Dirty bird, read the book. It gave the statistics to say why it is BOTH guns and lack of mental health support. And it named all kinds of things that your swear word Republicans fight such as better mental health programs for the poor and in schools. If it is REALLY mental health, why are the republicans putting religious chaplains in schools instead of trained mental health counselors?

I don’t argue with the uninformed. Read the book. Just go on Amazon and look for a new book out on mass shootings, read it through several times until you actually understand it, then come back and we can talk.

Do you realize you sound exactly like a Mormon? First you tell me to read the book, possibly several times if need be. Mormons tell people to just "read the book", then you insinuate I'm uninformed, just like a Mormon who believes everyone who's not a Mormon is uninformed because Mormons are the only ones with the full truth.

So someone who has a different opinion and expresses it is arguing in your opinion? If that is what you believe, again, you are acting exactly like one of my Mormon family members. Maybe you're just looking for posters to agree with you? Is that it?


Let's use common sense! Are 5 police officers with guns who are on the street patrolling in their cruzers more likely to stop a mass shooter before he kills dozens of children inside a school, or would it be more likely that 5 armed teachers IN THE SCHOOL that have been trained how to shoot a mass shooter would be faster and more capable to hunt down and kill the asshole? You see, progressives like yourself won't answer this question truthfully because answering it truthfully means the insane no gun narrative the progressives push would fall apart.

You do realize that I paraphrased/quoted a book, not gave my personal opinion, don’t you. Read the book because you are arguing with a book you haven’t even read.

You want my personal opinion? Well, my brother in law was killed in the line of duty, yup cop, shot by someone who didn’t hunt, just envisioned himself as “a good guy with a gun.” My brother died because injuries he got in a hunting accident. My husband’s grandfather and uncle were both killed by friendly fire in hunting accidents. I still have lots of hunters in my family, and I don’t mind that they hunt. My husband is retired military. My son in law is a disabled vet. People should be trained in gun safety and sometimes even the best training and best gun safety precautions and still people get killed. I know of a family whose kid died because his teacher had his gun at school where he could get it in case of a school shooter and another kid found the gun and shot him— first grader. The second amendment says “well trained militia” and they were talking about the states right to have a militia, of men in that state. Well, each state has a well trained militia that the state controls, called the national guard. I know more people die by suicide with their own gun than ever protect their family from an intruder. I used to deer hunt with my dad, before my brother’s accident. I have no problem with people who want to hunt, and I have no problem with people who own or collect guns. I am not anti guns. But I am pro gun safety, pro training, pro licensing just like we license cars. Licensing and training produce that well regulated militia.

I am not anti gun. I am pro mental health. I don’t at all wish the Dems would take away any one’s guns, unless they have mental health or violence problems. The idiot who killed my cop bro in law had a history of pulling guns on people. It was only a matter of time until he pulled the gun when he was slightly drunk and killed someone. But he drove around drunk with his rifle in the window of his pickup like a warped symbol of his (lacking) manhood. He had a problem and was a known mental health problem, but until he actually killed someone, nothing could be done. We need mandatory mental health help for people who are known dangers to themselves or others. But gun rights people keep weakening the mental health laws in favor of the idea that any insane violent drunk gets a gun. Any man who beats his wife gets to keep his gun until after he kills her. Oh, then maybe law enforcement will realize he is dangerous.

Almost *all* the mass shooters sent out signs that they planned violence. But people didn’t take it serious till after the shooting. Read the god damned book. Stop fighting for your right to own a gun just long enough to respect other people’s right to live.

Let anyone who passes a background check keep the guns. I am all in favor of that. But people who have previously pulled a gun to threaten someone and are alcoholic and violent like the guy who killed my Bro in law should not own guns. Common sense, even back in the wild wild west the sherif could take away the gun of drunk guys who pulled guns on people. Kids who are drawing pictures of themselves shooting up a school need help. The picture is a cry for help, but let’s just ignore that and let the 18 year old kid buy a gun. Good god, read the book and them come have an intelligent conversation about something other than “I want my gun.” Your opinion is exactly what this book would label as the problem

And I don’t want cops on the way to the school let alone teachers with guns. I want the kid to get mental health help years before it gets that far.

[alas]

Thanks for your thought-provoking post, alas, and also for the helpful communication tips in your other thread.

Marriage is one area where the church teaches all the wrong stuff. In the 80’s and 90’s, the church’s programs for teens and young adults put an enormous focus on avoiding pre-marital sex and getting married in the temple, rather than civilly, or even worse, cohabitating. But there was zero attention on relationship skills, what a healthy relationship looks like, how to discern if someone is compatible with you, signs that a potential spouse doesn’t care about your well-being and is only in the relationship for what they can get from you, signs that a potential spouse will be manipulative, controlling, abusive, or addicted. The church totally ignored the quality of the dating or marital relationship and focused on stuff that doesn’t really matter for people’s long-term well-being. The only exception is that their focus on abstinence before marriage does protect from unwanted pregnancy and STI’s, but a good sex education course could do that as well.

On the issue of guns: when I studied at a university in Sweden, one of my Swedish classmates had a mental health crisis and threatened a school shooting. The university got the student mental health resources, moved our courses entirely online, and reassured the rest of the class that the student couldn’t get access to guns like kids in the U.S. can. Like you say, the issue is both mental health and gun access.

Oh yes, what the girls are taught about marriage. All about marry an RM in the temple and live happily ever after. Never any mention that even RMs can make bad husbands, or that we should look for kindness or Christlike behavior. Just that he was a RM and we got married (young) in the temple. I remember one YW lesson where the stupid clueless idiot of a molly Mormon moron said that the ONLY way to have a happy marriage was to MIT (Marry in Temple) and that anyone who didn’t MIT didn’t live each other or your children, and if you MIT you were guaranteed this happy marriage. And I am mad as hell because my parents were MIT and were abusive and not happy, and Ann was angry because her parents did MIT and divorced, Sherry is crying that MMM (Molly Mormon moron) said her parents didn’t love each other or her because they didn’t MIT and Janet was fighting tears because her good loving dad was a nonmember. Yeah, the whole class was angry or broken hearted or trying to comfort their friends and MMM was oblivious to the hurt and disillusionment she was causing even though she should have known SOMETHING about the girls in the class. MIT is not a fairytale that promises happily ever after.

My best girl friend only focused on getting her guy into the temple and thought that would fix everything. So, he did as she asked until the marriage was complete, then went back to drinking, had an affair because he was too immature to handle that sex causes babies. MIT fixes nothing. It is just harder to get out of when things go south.

We needed lessons on communication, to be told to wait to have babies, space the babies, have enough money in the bank, in your own name so you can run for your life if you need to. We needed to know the red flags of abuse and control. We needed to know how to recognize creepers of all kinds. We needed to know that priesthood doesn’t make him magically righteous and that a guy can be a perfect Peter priesthood and still be so immature he is unfit for parenthood. We needed to be taught what immaturity in a guy looks like. We needed real preparation for life, not just preparation for one day of temple ceremony. And we needed to be told what went on in the temple so we were not so horrified to discover we belonged to a cult that it ruined our wedding day. Yeah, we were taught all the wrong things.

[HappierNow]

Good points, alas, about how the church’s teachings about temple marriage were hurtful, in addition to being useless. You nailed it when you said in your initial post that the church teaches whatever serves its institutional interests, regardless of whether it is harmful or hurtful to the lives of individual members.

[Dirty Bird]

Thanks for your thought-provoking post, alas, and also for the helpful communication tips in your other thread.

Marriage is one area where the church teaches all the wrong stuff. In the 80’s and 90’s, the church’s programs for teens and young adults put an enormous focus on avoiding pre-marital sex and getting married in the temple, rather than civilly, or even worse, cohabitating. But there was zero attention on relationship skills, what a healthy relationship looks like, how to discern if someone is compatible with you, signs that a potential spouse doesn’t care about your well-being and is only in the relationship for what they can get from you, signs that a potential spouse will be manipulative, controlling, abusive, or addicted. The church totally ignored the quality of the dating or marital relationship and focused on stuff that doesn’t really matter for people’s long-term well-being. The only exception is that their focus on abstinence before marriage does protect from unwanted pregnancy and STI’s, but a good sex education course could do that as well.

On the issue of guns: when I studied at a university in Sweden, one of my Swedish classmates had a mental health crisis and threatened a school shooting. The university got the student mental health resources, moved our courses entirely online, and reassured the rest of the class that the student couldn’t get access to guns like kids in the U.S. can. Like you say, the issue is both mental health and gun access.

Oh yes, what the girls are taught about marriage. All about marry an RM in the temple and live happily ever after. Never any mention that even RMs can make bad husbands, or that we should look for kindness or Christlike behavior. Just that he was a RM and we got married (young) in the temple. I remember one YW lesson where the stupid clueless idiot of a molly Mormon moron said that the ONLY way to have a happy marriage was to MIT (Marry in Temple) and that anyone who didn’t MIT didn’t live each other or your children, and if you MIT you were guaranteed this happy marriage. And I am mad as hell because my parents were MIT and were abusive and not happy, and Ann was angry because her parents did MIT and divorced, Sherry is crying that MMM (Molly Mormon moron) said her parents didn’t love each other or her because they didn’t MIT and Janet was fighting tears because her good loving dad was a nonmember. Yeah, the whole class was angry or broken hearted or trying to comfort their friends and MMM was oblivious to the hurt and disillusionment she was causing even though she should have known SOMETHING about the girls in the class. MIT is not a fairytale that promises happily ever after.

My best girl friend only focused on getting her guy into the temple and thought that would fix everything. So, he did as she asked until the marriage was complete, then went back to drinking, had an affair because he was too immature to handle that sex causes babies. MIT fixes nothing. It is just harder to get out of when things go south.

We needed lessons on communication, to be told to wait to have babies, space the babies, have enough money in the bank, in your own name so you can run for your life if you need to. We needed to know the red flags of abuse and control. We needed to know how to recognize creepers of all kinds. We needed to know that priesthood doesn’t make him magically righteous and that a guy can be a perfect Peter priesthood and still be so immature he is unfit for parenthood. We needed to be taught what immaturity in a guy looks like. We needed real preparation for life, not just preparation for one day of temple ceremony. And we needed to be told what went on in the temple so we were not so horrified to discover we belonged to a cult that it ruined our wedding day. Yeah, we were taught all the wrong things.

Are you OK with a School having an armed police officer roaming the halls of a school, for safety?

[Dirty Bird]

The progressive stance you're taking is basically this.

1. Protect our politicians with pistols and long guns but not our children while they're in school.

2. Protect our judges with pistols and long guns but not our children while they're are in school.

3. Apparently you are OK with police and even some dog catchers having guns to protect themselves but allowing a teacher to have a gun to protect children is an insane conservative view in your opinion. OK! Yeah! That makes a lot of sense!

4. Security guards who take a four week training course can carry a gun to protect people at WalMart but allowing armed teachers who have taken extensive training to handle and even hunt down a mass shooter once he enters a school is a bad idea? Really?? Answer me this, Alas. Are children in WalMart disarming Security guards at Walmart on a daily basis? Should we ask the government to pass legislation to stop WalMart from hiring actual police officers to roam the store to prevent theft because the police officer is armed with a gun and there are children inside the store the same time the police officers gun is in the store, isn't that a disaster just waiting to happen?

5. In the past 30 years I have had 4 people in my family die from car accidents, should we ban cars? What if we pass laws that restrict cars to a speed limit of 25 mph? That law would reduce deaths by vehicle almost down to nothing.

6. How many lives, especially the lives of children would be saved if we passed laws that made homeowners buy a safe just for the deadly chemicals that are stored throughout the house? Yes, let's make it illegal to store deadly chemicals under the sink or in a closet, that way the children are safe!

7. On that note, let's also pass legislation to force anyone who takes medication that could kill a child if they took it buy mistake, to buy a safe and force them to store it in the safe for the sake of the children. No more medicine in medicine cabinets or on the counter.

8. Alas, will you join me in asking Congress to pass a law to make rich white people to fill in their deadly swimming pools they store in their backyards? How many lives would be saved if we outlawed backyard swimming pools?

You see, Alas, there's a reason your progressive friends want you to concentrate on scary guns instead of all the other ways people die here in America. The founding fathers understood that true freedom had to be physically fought for from time to time and if the citizens aren't armed the government will severely over reach every single time we allow them to. The constitution was written to protect us from government over reach. The 2nd ammendment is 2nd because it's one of the most important.


Alas, why should our politicians be protected by armed individuals carrying pistols and automatic weapons, but you are arguing that our children should sit in schools without any protection from armed individuals at all? I truly don't understand.

[alas]

The progressive stance you're taking is basically this.

1. Protect our politicians with pistols and long guns but not our children while they're in school.

2. Protect our judges with pistols and long guns but not our children while they're are in school.

3. Apparently you are OK with police and even some dog catchers having guns to protect themselves but allowing a teacher to have a gun to protect children is an insane conservative view in your opinion. OK! Yeah! That makes a lot of sense!

4. Security guards who take a four week training course can carry a gun to protect people at WalMart but allowing armed teachers who have taken extensive training to handle and even hunt down a mass shooter once he enters a school is a bad idea? Really?? Answer me this, Alas. Are children in WalMart disarming Security guards at Walmart on a daily basis? Should we ask the government to pass legislation to stop WalMart from hiring actual police officers to roam the store to prevent theft because the police officer is armed with a gun and there are children inside the store the same time the police officers gun is in the store, isn't that a disaster just waiting to happen?

5. In the past 30 years I have had 4 people in my family die from car accidents, should we ban cars? What if we pass laws that restrict cars to a speed limit of 25 mph? That law would reduce deaths by vehicle almost down to nothing.

6. How many lives, especially the lives of children would be saved if we passed laws that made homeowners buy a safe just for the deadly chemicals that are stored throughout the house? Yes, let's make it illegal to store deadly chemicals under the sink or in a closet, that way the children are safe!

7. On that note, let's also pass legislation to force anyone who takes medication that could kill a child if they took it buy mistake, to buy a safe and force them to store it in the safe for the sake of the children. No more medicine in medicine cabinets or on the counter.

8. Alas, will you join me in asking Congress to pass a law to make rich white people to fill in their deadly swimming pools they store in their backyards? How many lives would be saved if we outlawed backyard swimming pools?

You see, Alas, there's a reason your progressive friends want you to concentrate on scary guns instead of all the other ways people die here in America. The founding fathers understood that true freedom had to be physically fought for from time to time and if the citizens aren't armed the government will severely over reach every single time we allow them to. The constitution was written to protect us from government over reach. The 2nd ammendment is 2nd because it's one of the most important.


Alas, why should our politicians be protected by armed individuals carrying pistols and automatic weapons, but you are arguing that our children should sit in schools without any protection from armed individuals at all? I truly don't understand.

You are so caught up in arguing that you don’t listen, so now I will treat you the same way. You are dead wrong in 90% of what you just said about my opinion so I am ignoring you for the rest of eternity.

[Dirty Bird]

The progressive stance you're taking is basically this.

1. Protect our politicians with pistols and long guns but not our children while they're in school.

2. Protect our judges with pistols and long guns but not our children while they're are in school.

3. Apparently you are OK with police and even some dog catchers having guns to protect themselves but allowing a teacher to have a gun to protect children is an insane conservative view in your opinion. OK! Yeah! That makes a lot of sense!

4. Security guards who take a four week training course can carry a gun to protect people at WalMart but allowing armed teachers who have taken extensive training to handle and even hunt down a mass shooter once he enters a school is a bad idea? Really?? Answer me this, Alas. Are children in WalMart disarming Security guards at Walmart on a daily basis? Should we ask the government to pass legislation to stop WalMart from hiring actual police officers to roam the store to prevent theft because the police officer is armed with a gun and there are children inside the store the same time the police officers gun is in the store, isn't that a disaster just waiting to happen?

5. In the past 30 years I have had 4 people in my family die from car accidents, should we ban cars? What if we pass laws that restrict cars to a speed limit of 25 mph? That law would reduce deaths by vehicle almost down to nothing.

6. How many lives, especially the lives of children would be saved if we passed laws that made homeowners buy a safe just for the deadly chemicals that are stored throughout the house? Yes, let's make it illegal to store deadly chemicals under the sink or in a closet, that way the children are safe!

7. On that note, let's also pass legislation to force anyone who takes medication that could kill a child if they took it buy mistake, to buy a safe and force them to store it in the safe for the sake of the children. No more medicine in medicine cabinets or on the counter.

8. Alas, will you join me in asking Congress to pass a law to make rich white people to fill in their deadly swimming pools they store in their backyards? How many lives would be saved if we outlawed backyard swimming pools?

You see, Alas, there's a reason your progressive friends want you to concentrate on scary guns instead of all the other ways people die here in America. The founding fathers understood that true freedom had to be physically fought for from time to time and if the citizens aren't armed the government will severely over reach every single time we allow them to. The constitution was written to protect us from government over reach. The 2nd ammendment is 2nd because it's one of the most important.


Alas, why should our politicians be protected by armed individuals carrying pistols and automatic weapons, but you are arguing that our children should sit in schools without any protection from armed individuals at all? I truly don't understand.

You are so caught up in arguing that you don’t listen, so now I will treat you the same way. You are dead wrong in 90% of what you just said about my opinion so I am ignoring you for the rest of eternity.

Your progressive argument, especially the part about how we need more mental health advisors and other blow hard people who think their crap don't stink because they got a degree in the mental field, reminds me a lot of a Shakar Krishnan, a city council member in New York city. When the Governor sent 750 scary national guard and 250 state police with their scary guns to protect the people who use the subway, Shakar said instead of sending troops or more police with scary guns, New York should concentrate more on mental health . Only a progressive could make an insane comment suggesting that mental health counseling is the answer, not more police with guns when it comes to violence in the subway.

Just what I want when I'm being attacked in an under ground tunnel, a mental health advisor to talk the perpetrator out of committing crime, yeah, that's going to work.

[2bizE]

So, if the issue is not necessarily the guns, but mental health, why is mental health much worse in general across the USA than in the 1970s and 1980s?

[Dirty Bird]

So, if the issue is not necessarily the guns, but mental health, why is mental health much worse in general across the USA than in the 1970s and 1980s?

That's the real question! Thanks for speaking up because we shouldn't have to give away our freedoms just because mental health is worse now than it was 40 years ago. Even freedom of speech, the first amendment, is under attack because of mental health problems.

I and many of my friends were shooting guns before we were even baptized into the church. We would shoot squirrels from a window in the middle of the city. We hunted with shotguns, killed so many with animals, Noah's ark couldn't hold them all. Before Columbine, school shootings were very rare. They number one reason we have so many school shootings is because the shooter understands that if he kills as many kids as possible, everyone in America and around the world will know his name for at least a few days because the news will talk non stop about him 24/7. He can get his 15 minutes of fame rather easily. If it bleeds it leads. That's not just a progressive or Democrat thing, conservatives are guilty of talking to much about school shooters also. The more attention we give these idiots, the more these idiots will try to kill children. Most are starving for attention and what better way to get attention than doing an evil act that will get you noticed by millions of people.

So I think we all agree the young men or men that become mass shooters are mentally unstable. But that doesn't mean mental health specialists will be able to talk them out of committing are horrible act. Quite the opposite actually. Most mental health professionals are mental themselves. I know a few and they're the most unstable people I know. Most live their lives by focusing on the negative, not the positive. Most walk around with a doom and gloom attitude, thinking life is so unfair its not actually worth living.

It's common sense, don't give mass shooters airtime on every news station and kill them before they kill children. That requires arming adults in schools. An armed teacher that is trained annually on how to kill a mass shooter is more capable to stop a mass shooter than a regular beat cop patrolling near the school.

As far as your question why mental health is worse than it was in the 70s and 80s, well, society acts kinda like a pendulum, it swings back and forth continuously and often what you'll find is in western societies is every eighty years or so people will become more conservative or liberal depending on where the pendulum is. Right now the pendulum is up really high to the left, meaning, lots of insane ideas the liberals push are being implemented and people understand that what the liberals are pushing upon society is totally insane because the far left of the party is setting the agenda. This kind of Marxist agenda, like not being able to define what a woman is makes people very depressed and makes them feel like life isn't even worth living. As the pendulum swings back to the right and more ideas and thoughts are included as truth, people will become less depressed and more mentally stable, until the pendulum reaches the high right part of its swing arc and the far right nuts try to push their agenda on us.

The mental health field has become about indoctrination. What percentage of mass school shooters used prescribed drugs from a mental health professional?

[Cnsl1]

Good lord, Dirty Bird. Half of what you say makes you sound completely full of shit, and most of the other half of what you say makes you sound completely uninformed and ignorant, but thankfully a little bit of what you say makes you sound like a decent human being with a modicum of intelligence.

The issues of guns, gun rights, gun ownership, mental health, mental health training, mental health services, armed protection, child protection, and how to prevent needless shootings and violence is complicated at best, particularly when battling confirmation bias, vehement opinions, lack of reliance on good data, and the ready availability of alcohol.

I've seen mental health services prevent deaths, violence, suicides. I've seen the unavailability of a gun lead to happy outcomes and I've seen unhappy outcomes directly caused because a gun was readily available. I haven't seen but have heard about unhappy outcomes prevented because of a gun. And there have been maybe two times in my life when I've wished I had a gun, but never a time when it turned out that I really needed a gun. I realize that maybe this is just good fortune, or maybe some decent psychological skills.

I think everyone agrees that school violence, especially school shootings are bad and should never occur again. It seems like we as a country should be able to figure out how to stop it, but we're probably going to have to do it with some compromise and giving up a little of what we want to get what's best for the most people. That's kind of how societies work and adapt if they are to survive. It also seems like training, education, accurate information, good data, and a willingness to change are crucial.

So, we have to figure out what's the right stuff or best stuff to teach. Us old farts have to be willing to make changes for the good of the society. The world is different than it was when we were kids. We can't go back. So now what do we do to make it better than it is right now?

[Cnsl1]

I do agree that it kinda seems like society swings back and forth left to right, sorta like a pendulum and I used to think that was probably good because in the long run it kept us kinda down the middle of the road. It sure seems to me that lately this pendulum is swinging wildly back and forth quickly, and maybe a better analogy would be that we're in a car and we're trying to self correct so many times that we've lost control. The left is farther left. The right is farther right. And we're mowing down the majority in the middle who are wondering what the fuck is going on.

I have never in my life seen such a polemic political environment.

Stop and think a second... is it just me? How in the holy hell do we have these same two old guys as our only choices to lead our country? My suspicion is that the vast majority of people in this country would rather have someone else in each party spot. And, probably even a third choice.

It feels like somehow somewhere we're teaching the wrong stuff.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Stop and think a second... is it just me? How in the holy hell do we have these same two old guys as our only choices to lead our country? My suspicion is that the vast majority of people in this country would rather have someone else in each party spot. And, probably even a third choice.

Biden ran in a rigged primary and won. Then he ran in a rigged general election and he won. He definitely had more ballots counted for him than the other contestants. But a good chunk of those ballots were mailed out, mailed in, dropped off, boxed up a bit, delivered, and counted, ya know. That was the holy hell of it, and that is the how in the holy hell. More ballots that were counted after being mailed out and mailed again, allegedly, were in favor of an old guy.

Trump is the "someone else" in that party spot. The McGOP of McRomney, McDaniel, McCarthy and McConnell all wanted anyone but Trump. Trump is the other. He was picked instead of Ukraine/Invasion/Forced Vaccines - not because of it.

[Dirty Bird]

Good lord, Dirty Bird. Half of what you say makes you sound completely full of shit, and most of the other half of what you say makes you sound completely uninformed and ignorant, but thankfully a little bit of what you say makes you sound like a decent human being with a modicum of intelligence.

The issues of guns, gun rights, gun ownership, mental health, mental health training, mental health services, armed protection, child protection, and how to prevent needless shootings and violence is complicated at best, particularly when battling confirmation bias, vehement opinions, lack of reliance on good data, and the ready availability of alcohol.

I've seen mental health services prevent deaths, violence, suicides. I've seen the unavailability of a gun lead to happy outcomes and I've seen unhappy outcomes directly caused because a gun was readily available. I haven't seen but have heard about unhappy outcomes prevented because of a gun. And there have been maybe two times in my life when I've wished I had a gun, but never a time when it turned out that I really needed a gun. I realize that maybe this is just good fortune, or maybe some decent psychological skills.

I think everyone agrees that school violence, especially school shootings are bad and should never occur again. It seems like we as a country should be able to figure out how to stop it, but we're probably going to have to do it with some compromise and giving up a little of what we want to get what's best for the most people. That's kind of how societies work and adapt if they are to survive. It also seems like training, education, accurate information, good data, and a willingness to change are crucial.

So, we have to figure out what's the right stuff or best stuff to teach. Us old farts have to be willing to make changes for the good of the society. The world is different than it was when we were kids. We can't go back. So now what do we do to make it better than it is right now?

You know, I was going to start by calling you a little bitch for not understanding the point I'm trying to make, but then I remembered that the vast majority of men who leave the church for some reason stop producing testosterone, like RFM and John Dehlin, and become total girly men. I'm assuming that's what happened to you, because your post is all over the place and it's very one sided and your sense of reality has most definitely been influenced by progressive cult ideology.

Guns and gun ownership isn't complicated as you say. For hundreds of years we lived with guns in homes and hardly ever heard about school shootings

You're one side view is heavy on progressive ideology. You say you have seen mental health services prevent deaths. Well, guess what, I've seen mental health services cause deaths by prescribing drugs that alter someone's brain to the point that my friend became delusional and hung himself 50' up a pine tree. Guess what, opposite of what you've seen, I've seen guns save lives. Weak minded men are susceptible to being influenced by men who are hell bent on disarming a population so they can exert their will upon them. Again, have you searched your wallet to see if you lost your man card?

Oh Jesus fxxxing christ! Did you actually say that we need to compromise and give up a little of what we want to get what's best for most people? No that's not how healthy societies work, my friend! What you're suggesting in giving in to the Marxist is exactly what they want. They want men to become weak little cowards that are afraid to protect the constitution. They want you disarmed because a disarmed society can't fight back. Once they have turned the majority of men in to weak minded dickless individuals there's nothing in the way to prevent them from putting in place their slave holder policies. Constantly and continually keeping our society in fear so the vast majority of society feels like the government is the only solution to the problems plaguing everyone. Sound familiar? That's exactly how most religions keep members coming back.

No, I'm not an old fart like you! You're willing to compromise with Marxist, I'm not. Somehow you have accepted that the changes that are happening to society are good for society and you couldn't be further from the truth. No one wants to go back, ding dong! What real men that still act like real men want is a country that isn't taken over by Marxist. Real men like me understand there can't be a first amendment without the second amendment. They go hand in hand. You lose one, you lose the other. I understand you won't comprehend what I'm trying to convey because like you said, you're willing to accept defeat. You're willing to give up freedom for perceived security. Guns equal freedom in this world. Get rid of guns and a society no different than China or North Korea is waiting around the corner.

[moksha]

You know, I was going to start by calling you a little bitch for not understanding the point I'm trying to make, but then I remembered that the vast majority of men who leave the church for some reason stop producing testosterone, like RFM and John Dehlin, and become total girly men. I'm assuming that's what happened to you, because your post is all over the place and it's very one sided and your sense of reality has most definitely been influenced by progressive cult ideology.

Dirty Bird, you sound like a nut case who has morphed into a board bully. Try to play nice on discussion boards, even if you feel yourself awash in too much testosterone. Go caress your guns till you have some sort of release.

[Cnsl1]

I accept victory.

Thank you. Thank you very much.