The Plain of Olishem

[jfro18]

Gotcha, and I totally agree. Unfortunately, there's no way to nail down what was or was not being talked about around the hearth or in mysterious midnight gatherings.

Isn't this what it always comes down to?

I just read most of that CES rebuttal from a former CES employee thing... and on a lot of the really difficult stuff he would reply with a snarky "Were you there?"

CES CLAIM: Did Joseph Smith have sex with the younger wives? A: DON'T THINK SO. WERE YOU THERE?!

CES CLAIM: Why didn't Joseph tell anyone about the First Vision, priesthood restoration, or other miracles until years later? A: MAYBE HE DID. WERE YOU THERE?!

CES CLAIM: Why did Joseph Smith make up the Book of Abraham? A: NOT HOW IT HAPPENED. WERE YOU THERE?!

CES CLAIM: Why did Joseph use the names from Anthon, local towns, and areas? A: DIDN'T HAVE THOSE MATERIALS. WERE YOU THERE?!

Another fun trick is to claim that the critical view is based on fragmentary evidence and then cite the most remote thing that makes no logical sense to claim proof that Joseph was a prophet.

And round and round we go.

[Palerider]

"Were you there?"

No....and neither were you, pal.

Therefore it holds that the possibility of Joseph NOT being a prophet is just as likely if not moreso than the possibility that he was.

With the "Were you there?" defense the very best they can hope for is a very disappointing draw.

But with all of the many questionable items added together I think Joseph loses. As we have discussed here before, there may be no smoking gun, but there is death by a thousand cuts.

[jfro18]

I was reading through some of the sections of the CES Reply from a CES Employee over the last few days after seeing it posted, and sometimes I'd nod along like "Yeah, I can see where they're coming from in going after the CES Letter."

And to be fair there are a few sections of the CES Letter that I think are unnecessary just as I think there are some sections that should be in there.

That being said, once you look at what apologists do to make it work, then it becomes a pattern. And once you recognize the pattern, the problems just don't go away and almost interlock together.

I think there are smoking guns like the Book of Abraham, Deutero-Isaiah, and DNA, but like you said no matter where you turn there are problems. And no matter how many times you hear "You weren't there so you can't know how the process went," it doesn't mean that they can explain away the problems either.

The other part of that CES Reply from a CES employee was how he brushes off the BoM issues and throughout the 372 pages keeps saying "You never even laid a globe on the BoM and now you're onto issue XYZ."

That's the other amazing thing about apologetics is how they ignore issues and then pretend they don't exist when tackling others. That response to the CES Letter is the perfect example of how you can use "righteous indignation" to just plow through the things you don't want to talk about, and you see that a lot when they discuss the locations/names as this thread started with.

[Corsair]

I do network security in my professional life. My nightmare scenario is that I can protect my network from a thousand different exploits, but if I get just one critical problem wrong, the whole network can potentially be compromised and taken down. LDS Apologetic theory works similarly, although they really don't enjoy having that similar framework. Joseph Smith has to get a bunch of things 100% correct to avoid the main critical thesis we all know as "Joseph just made it up and he got lucky in a few places." The fact that Syrian Ulishem is 1600 km from Ur of the Chaldees simply means that Joseph simply got lucky with barely hitting the edge of an uninspiring target.

Let's suppose for a moment that somehow Joseph was divinely inspired to include Olishem in the PoGP. This does not automatically mean that we are now divinely obligated to accept everything else he did. There are a bunch of possibilities. One is that he might have immediately become a fallen prophet from plural marriage issues, financial fraud events, or other related problems. Another is that the true church actually continued through Joseph Smith III or from one of the plural marriage FLDS off shoots. Yet another is that Joseph's Restoration was supposed to end with him and the Book of Mormon was supposed to eventually be accepted by all Christendom. Still another is that God is actually a Universalist and is happy with people finding whatever way works for them.

Joseph was not the only guy to claim a prophetic mantle. Don't we also have to look at the prophetic achievements from Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Scientists), Ellen White (Seventh Day Adventists), or Charles Taze Russell (JWs)? The prophet, Muhammad, has a bunch of parallels with Joseph Smith 1200 years earlier and Mormons don't worry about switching to Islam.

[moksha]

I've been reading the CES letter rebuttal from "former CES employee" Jim Bennett (he just released a new version which has been floating around on Twitter the last few days) where he insists that the Moroni/Comora cities on the maps were never around before JS's time.

I think the Portuguese mapmaker used the names the native people of the Comora Islands used when the Portuguese first visited the city of Moroni. The names probably predated JS by hundreds of years.

For faithful Mormons, it doesn't matter if these rebuttals are true, just that they exist.

[Hagoth]

I think the Portuguese mapmaker used the names the native people of the Comora Islands used when the Portuguese first visited the city of Moroni. The names probably predated JS by hundreds of years.

After Moroni deposited the gold plates in Cumorah he wandered out to Utah (according to Brigham Young) and dedicated the Manti temple site. Who knows what he did after that? Who's to say he didn't make his way back to the coast, build a boat and sail across the Atlantic and around the horn to Madagascar where he was greeted by people who named their island and town in his honor. This is actually evidence FOR the Book of Mormon!

[slavereeno]

For faithful Mormons, it doesn't matter if these rebuttals are true, just that they exist.

This!

Who's to say he didn't make his way back to the coast, build a boat and sail across the Atlantic and around the horn to Madagascar where he was greeted by people who named their island and town in his honor. This is actually evidence FOR the Book of Mormon!

That would be more funny if it didn't sound so EXACTLY like most apologetics I read.

[moksha]

For faithful Mormons, it doesn't matter if these rebuttals are true, just that they exist.

This!

Whatever truth is lacking can be compensated for with the Burning in the Bosom technique.