Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
I think it would be fantastic if you and Bill Reel put together an episode (or multi-part episode) that would act as a mosaic in covering the problematic points of Mormon history from the beginning to the present time. Would love to hear you and Bill highlight what you believe to be the most important and problematic points of each piece of the mosaic. I think this could be a classic for those traveling the rabbit hole or referring open minded TBMs in exploring some of the critical points of history that drive people away from the church.
I'll suggest some candidate pieces of the mosaic, and I'm sure you could get many more and possibly better points from contributors to this forum.
Cheers,
Arcturus
Beginning the mosaic:
The Smith family connection to Dartmouth and the borrowing of Dartmouth theology (Behrens 2006)
Messy timeline of burned over district which catalyzed Joseph's search for truth (see this forum: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4401)
Treasure digging (Melonakos interview on MS)
First vision accounts
BofM translation process and similarity to some concurrent literature
Joseph's attempt to sell the BofM
Fanny Alger
Messy priesthood restoration timeline and Whitmer reaction
Swedenborgism and Mormon afterlife theology
Polygamy
Masonry/temple
Council of 50 (Grant Palmer's last interviews on MS
Mormons persecuting locals (challenge the popular notion of Mormons' being victims of persecution
BY being a first-rate a**hole (treatment of employees, favoritism with wives)
Mountain Meadows
BY's suspicious death
John Taylor's revelation from Christ on polygamy being eternal
Timeliness/convenience of first manifesto
Second manifesto
Adam-God coverup
Multiple first vision accounts coverup
Ronald E. Poelman 1984 coverup
Changes to barbaric temple rituals
POX and Christofferson's lack of involvement in policy (interview with Greg Prince)
POX overturning
Mormonism's wealth and <1% charitable contributions (Mormon Wikileaks)
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin
This sounds a bit like a podcast version of the CES Letter. How effective it is to a TMB/Semi-TBM would probably be about the same. The shotgun tactic of throwing everything out there to see what hits. That being said, I would find it interesting.
A few other things you can add to the list:
* Over glorification & whitewashing of hand cart disasters.
* Mark Hoffman affair.
* GBH's no paid clergy statement to "modest stipend", to later revaluations of $120K+ salaries, plus benefits.
* Long history of covering up abuse by various members of leadership and paying off victims.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams
Maybe bring in the host from the Mormon History Podcast for this one?
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams
Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:22 am
This sounds a bit like a podcast version of the CES Letter. How effective it is to a TMB/Semi-TBM would probably be about the same. The shotgun tactic of throwing everything out there to see what hits. That being said, I would find it interesting.
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:22 am
Sounds like your asking for a CES Podcast?
I had this thought typing up the request. Maybe it's just me, but when I was a TBM I had a tinge of guilt when I'd read published material that I presumed to be anti-Mormon. However, when I went down the rabbit hole for some reason the same guilt wasn't present when I'd listen to critical discussions.
That being said, if a portion of the targeted audience is TBMs, I think they're more likely to entertain a podcast recommended by a friend, say on their commute to-and-from work, as opposed to sitting down and reading critical material.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin
Arcturus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:26 pm
That being said, if a portion of the targeted audience is TBMs, I think they're more likely to entertain a podcast recommended by a friend, say on their commute to-and-from work, as opposed to sitting down and reading critical material.
Remove reading the threatening literature. Then add a friendly, inviting, well spoken and well informed voice and you eliminate the "Boogey Man".
People are more inclined to say, "This guy is just like ME. He talks and sounds just like me. I can relate to this person."
Suddenly the false charges of "anti-mormon" and "Satan's henchman" disappear. You become another Mormon asking honest questions about things that don't make sense and don't calculate. And what's more you're doing it without fear. People actually admire that honest, fearless questioner who isn't intimidated by authority. A real voice means a lot.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
Arcturus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:26 pm
That being said, if a portion of the targeted audience is TBMs, I think they're more likely to entertain a podcast recommended by a friend, say on their commute to-and-from work, as opposed to sitting down and reading critical material.
Remove reading the threatening literature. Then add a friendly, inviting, well spoken and well informed voice and you eliminate the "Boogey Man".
People are more inclined to say, "This guy is just like ME. He talks and sounds just like me. I can relate to this person."
Suddenly the false charges of "anti-mormon" and "Satan's henchman" disappear. You become another Mormon asking honest questions about things that don't make sense and don't calculate. And what's more you're doing it without fear. People actually admire that honest, fearless questioner who isn't intimidated by authority. A real voice means a lot.
I agree.
Case in point was the Sandra Tanner episode. In my mind she was the rapid venom spewing, baby smashing, anti Mormon who interfered with my investigators gateway to salvation.
In reality, she’s just a nice kind grandma with an awesome bs detector who saw flaws in the Mormon product and wasn’t afraid to stand up against the church.
Consig, it sounds like you’re the right guy to do this.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:10 pm
Case in point was the Sandra Tanner episode. In my mind she was the rapid venom spewing, baby smashing, anti Mormon who interfered with my investigators gateway to salvation.
In reality, she’s just a nice kind grandma with an awesome bs detector who saw flaws in the Mormon product and wasn’t afraid to stand up against the church.
I forgot to mention the significance of having someone speak to us as a HUMAN BEING.
That ostentatious, mealy mouthed robotic, CES speak that is imitated by all GAs and GA wannabes that we hear every conference is just so.....loaded with crap.
It neither gives nor projects any more authority than the amount of truth found in each talk. And there is a great deal of falsehood mixed in with every conference talk.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
