He left because He was offended.......

[No Tof]

Many times over my four year epic journey looking at the church in the rear view mirror I have wondered about the idea of the unpardonable sin of denying the HG.

I believe we were taught that all sin can be forgiven, but the sin of denying the HG cannot be forgiven in this world or the world to come. (correct me if I'm off base with this) If you put on your TBM hat, what does this mean?
I conjure up images of doing a slight infraction of the rules like watching an R rated movie which apparently offends the HG but I don't believe this would be categorized as denying said ghost.

So what constitutes denying?

Does it mean we realize the feelings we had which told us the church was true, could just as likely be our own ideas and now don't believe?

Perhaps it's when we don't really look for magical/miraculous answers to prayer requests?

For me this idea was probably one of the last tags of manipulative control that I worried about.

[nibbler]

If you want the orthodox explanation:

Teachings: Joseph F. Smith, Chapter 8: The Holy Ghost

Under the heading "The unpardonable sin is to willfully deny and defy the Holy Ghost after having received His witness."

and

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I was always taught off the cuff that it was something us mere mortals were not capable of because it required a perfect knowledge - something unattainable in this life. It was put in terms of seeing the resurrected Jesus in front of you, recognizing him as such, and wanting to crucify him again. It was a quick answer when people worry about the "unpardonable sin." A real "don't worry about it" answer.

I'd hate to think that the winds are turning to the point where leaders or members start interpreting it as people that leave the church.

[Not Buying It]

It's just a bogeyman to scare people into never becoming apostates. Doctrinally it's the typical nailing jello to the wall, the LDS.org website has a bunch of ramshackle, nonsensical, contradictory statements about what it is:https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/unpardonable-sin.

Here's the wisdom of Joseph Smith on the subject:

All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.[5]

So, yeah, apostates commit the unpardonable sin. Apparently sexual predation of minors, foster daughters, housemaids and married women is pretty easily pardonable for the likes of Joseph Smith, but not going apostate. Somehow his words don't scare me too much.

[document]

There were two things I believed.

When I was a believer, I believed it was someone who knew with perfect knowledge of heaven, and turned away and fought the church. The list of these people were small, including Cain, Judas Iscariot, and William Law. Somebody like Joseph Smith, or Gordon Hinckley could absolutely become one who denies, but for us little people, nope.

When I was still a believer I learned of the second anointing. I then believed that a person who denied the Holy Ghost would be someone who received this higher ordination, had their calling and election made sure, and then turned from the light. This would include people like Cain, Judas Iscariot (I was a believer who thought the temple was used anciently as Mormons do today), John D. Lee, and Tom Phillips.

When I left the church, a few people declared me a son of perdition and I was told quite explicitly by one local church leader that I was destined for outer darkness. This was also expressed to my son by his former primary teacher.

So, I think a lot of people have differing definitions.

[Hagoth]

The way I knew was when the HG appeared and punched me in the junk. Man, was he offended. Plus All I did was make him stay up past his precious bed time.

[nibbler]

The way I knew was when the HG appeared and punched me in the junk. Man, was he offended. Plus All I did was make him stay up past his precious bed time.

You made him late for his 'getting offended' appointments in other time zones.

[Corsair]

The way I knew was when the HG appeared and punched me in the junk. Man, was he offended. Plus All I did was make him stay up past his precious bed time.

You made him late for his 'getting offended' appointments in other time zones.

For shame! Because of you some poor teenage girl won't be able to find the keys to her Jetta tomorrow morning!

[Newme]

Many times over my four year epic journey looking at the church in the rear view mirror I have wondered about the idea of the unpardonable sin of denying the HG.

I believe we were taught that all sin can be forgiven, but the sin of denying the HG cannot be forgiven in this world or the world to come. (correct me if I'm off base with this) If you put on your TBM hat, what does this mean?
I conjure up images of doing a slight infraction of the rules like watching an R rated movie which apparently offends the HG but I don't believe this would be categorized as denying said ghost.

So what constitutes denying?

Does it mean we realize the feelings we had which told us the church was true, could just as likely be our own ideas and now don't believe?

Perhaps it's when we don't really look for magical/miraculous answers to prayer requests?

For me this idea was probably one of the last tags of manipulative control that I worried about.

It used to worry me too. Then a friend explained this from a spiritual, not Mormon, perspective.
Forgiven - is literally "given" to go "for"ward. Being damned is basically being held back from progressing, which applies to many at some time, including TBMs, when you consider Fowler's stages of faith or just coming to grasp of truths in general. Let's say that the Holy Ghost is at least partially one's intuition - one's own self-awareness - "the kingdom of God within" as Jesus said. If you deny yourself - what you FEEL - then it holds you back from doing something about it.

I've come to define sin differently now - I now see sin as "incorrect thought" and consequent emotions and actions. The way that Mormonism teaches about sin, is, ironically sinful - it's incorrect. We all sin - we all have incorrect thoughts and screw up regularly. Sinning is not the real evil - the real evil is denying when we've screwed up and trying to make someone else suffer. Oaks saying the church never apologizes is evil and goes against the basic idea of repentance. Using Jesus as human sacrifice scape-goat, is, IMO evil. We all have some evil in us. Sometimes I've taken out my frustrations on others - and in the moment when I'm doing that, I'm damned in a way - I'm not "given" to go "for"ward - because I'm not allowing myself to look within to see how I thought and felt and how it wasn't their fault - I was just blaming others. So this is kind of the way I see denying the holy ghost - it's denying our own weakness which keeps us from correcting it and moving on. Mormonism incorrectly teaches it is a once-and-for all gloom and doom thing - but really we've all experienced it as part of trial-and-error living.

Also, consider that when you feel the spirit, it is usually not a manifesto clearly typed out in front of you. It's generally a sense - a feeling - and we add to it our own interpretation. I've felt the spirit often at church - very strongly - because what I was thinking was good. There is good in the church - but there's also bad. And the church doesn't have a monopoly on the spirit - I've felt the spirit watching X-men and Lord of the Rings. And I think generally, I've felt the spirit more often after mentally letting go of some of the dysfunctional aspects of Mormonism.

[wtfluff]

I'm willing to chat with Holy the Ghost any time he/she/it wants to show up.

Same goes for Elohim and Jesus.

Until then, I don't believe in ghosts, or lichs, or toga-wearing alien humanoids with super-powers. I can't have a "Perfect Knowledge" of any of those types of beings unless they actually show up and prove to me that they're real. And with that being said, I have no way of "Denying" any of those beings to commit "The Ultimate Sin".


P.S. Is Holy the Ghost a friendly ghost like Casper? BOO!

[alas]

One of my modern translations of the New Testament translates things a bit differently where Jesus calls Judas a son of perdition. The King James Version says, none are lost except the son of perdition, where the other translates it as, no one was lost except he who chose to be lost. So, according to that translation, how does one become a son of perdition? One chooses to.

And it sounds like it has to be an informed choice. You have to know which direction goes back to God, and knowingly go the other. None of us NOMs who are looking for truth and cannot find it in the Mormon church are choosing to go against truth. We just are not finding it in the church. Now if the general authorities know that the church is not what it claims to be, and knowingly choose to teach against the truth, do they qualify? They would be making a choice to go against truth.

[mooseman]

As dumb as it sounds, it technically makes sense both ways (at least to me)

Let's assume for a minute Mormonism somehow is completely true. We all had the spirit bear witness the BOM is true and the Brighamite branch is all it claimed and claims to be. We then all allowed the "influences of Satan and the world" and doubt that testimony, hardening our hearts and deciding that "sacred manifestation" was a trick of our mind, similar in every way to what countless other faiths claim as proof of Gods divine will. BOOM! We've denied the spirit by giving into our doubts and not living by every word that the prophet utters.

AND no matter what will happen to us in this existence, we'll never get back to the point we look at the truth claims and doctrinal positions of the Church because face it, no angels will appear to us. No earth shattering prophetic uttering will come, no evidence that in anyway shape or form validates what the church claims will come forth--we know too much to live by simple faith now in what they say. So our hearts will never soften, we'll never repent of the position we hold....in short we are lost for all eternity from the clutches of the Church because of that--and there for Christ and Redemption they are the gateway to.

IF they are correct. So who are the sons of perdition? those who have moved beyond the influence of the Church leadership by learning the truth and apostatizing. And if they aren't correct? Still the same thing, because the last thing they want is to have no power over you--which is what son of perdition is because they have lost you.

ETA: of course, just because someone goes inactive/leaves the church doesn't mean this happens. Just those of who actually search, pondered and prayed our way out. My in laws for example,are as jack mormon as they come but still will bear testimony to me the church is true even if they haven't stepped foot in a temple their whole lives. They clearly aren't free of the COB, so they aren't lost--no matter how much they life their coffee, smokes, and hate their bishop.

[Emower]

Yup, that threat never bothered me much. If the HG wants to tell me something, fine. But he had better be darn specific, none of this warming of my bosom nonsense. I knew it would never ever be specific. So no worries.

[2bizE]

The HG needs to stop being offended so easily. He isn't much good for anything in my life. I say a cuss word. He leaves. I watch a PG-13 or R movie. He leaves. I see a beautiful woman. He leaves. He really has bad manners. I wish he would stay for a while, but he always has to go. He is never really there when I need him most. Must be too busy comforting someone else.

[fh451]

The HG needs to stop being offended so easily. He isn't much good for anything in my life. I say a cuss word. He leaves. I watch a PG-13 or R movie. He leaves. I see a beautiful woman. He leaves. He really has bad manners. I wish he would stay for a while, but he always has to go. He is never really there when I need him most. Must be too busy comforting someone else.

And he goes to bed too darned early!!

fh451