Another Holy Ghost?

[Hagoth]

I have never seen a good apologetic explanation of why Mormon worship was so drastically different in the early days. The early meetings were often chaotic riots of charismatic behaviors that included: speaking in tongues, collapsing into comatose states (in some instances they set up cots because they knew some people wouldn't be able to walk away for a day or so), demonic possessions, exorcisms, people dong backflips and swinging from the rafters, prophesying, visions, auditory hallucinations, etc.)

I would ask an apologist what element was different from today's worship.

Were they worshipping a different God? (apologist answer: NO!)
Were they receiving manifestations from a different Holy Ghost? (apologist answer: NO!)
Were they using a different sacrament? (apologist answer: OK, I'm going to change the subject now)

[moksha]

Hagoth, thank you for broaching this subject!!!

[wtfluff]

...
Were they receiving manifestations from a different Holy Ghost? (apologist answer: NO!)
...

Interesting. Since the first assistant to the CEO has admitted that there are heavenly motherS, maybe one of the other stooges on the board-of-directors will admit there are multiple ghosts of the Holy™ type floating around?

Maybe the original Holy the Ghost who was good at inciting way cooler "spiritual" experiences decided to retire and was replaced by a less enthusiastic Holy? Holy the Boring Ghost? Holy Junior?

(I should probably reiterate that I don't believe in ghosts.)

[deacon blues]

I'll give my dogmatic opinion:
1. Because they don't really talk to God. They talk to their biases.
2. Any revelation about the H.G. would mess with some TBM's biases.
3. the Holy Ghost is perhaps the ultimate example of Jello. He/It can't be nailed down. It's too amorphous, indeterminant, etc.
But I could be wrong.

[alas]

Different Holy Ghost. The wives rotate callings every few eons, just like at church.

[moksha]

Mormons once postulated that Joseph Smith once held the Office of the Holy Ghost.

[Hagoth]

The thing I was trying to draw attention to, of course, is the sacrament. Joseph would serve his special "mixed wine" sacrament, which attendees scooped with a cup from a bucket that was passed around. About an hour later people would start having visions, falling to the floor, vomiting uncontrollably (Samuel Smith), and behaving very oddly.

We are all familiar with the manifestations reported by attendees of the Kirtland temple dedication, but there are a couple of interesting things about this experience that most people don't realize. First, none of these happened in the actual daylight dedication meeting that was open to all members. They occurred in the after hours priesthood-only meeting, where the special sacrament was served in abundance. Second, we often hear about a number of miraculous visions that were reported, such as a rushing wind sound, tongues of flame appearing above peoples' heads, an angel flying into the room and seating himself on the stand (a very weird, hunched over old man with huge black eyes who was later identified as both Jesus and Moroni), etc. What we are never told is that the congregation did not experience these things as a group. Each of these was reported by a single individual, and later erroneously conflated to give the impression that they were group manifestations.

[deacon blues]

Wow. A lot of this new to me. Is that in the Joseph Smith Papers? the McLellin papers? I had heard accounts of people being drunk on sacrement wine because they were fasting, but Samuel Smith vomiting? Suspicious.

[moksha]

What we are never told is that the congregation did not experience these things as a group. Each of these was reported by a single individual, and later erroneously conflated to give the impression that they were group manifestations.

What drug do you speculate was added to this Sacrament-in-a-Bucket? My guess is Datura, but you are the expert on this topic. Sorry to hear that Samuel Smith puked his guts out.

[Hagoth]

What we are never told is that the congregation did not experience these things as a group. Each of these was reported by a single individual, and later erroneously conflated to give the impression that they were group manifestations.

What drug do you speculate was added to this Sacrament-in-a-Bucket? My guess is Datura, but you are the expert on this topic. Sorry to hear that Samuel Smith puked his guts out.

I agree. Datura was and is very common in that region, and at that particular time and place it was used in folk medicines. There were popular books of plant-based medicine that included Datura and other nightshades. Datura is highly toxic, so you have to know what you're doing. Emma Smith wrote a 6-page letter to JS 3rd telling him how to make a safe Datura treatment for bronchitis, so those folks obviously knew what they were doing. The fact that attendees at some of the early Mormon meetings became immobile after drinking the sacrament, and that they sometimes even set up cots in advance, knowing that some people wouldn't be able to walk home also suggests Datura to me. It has a looooong period of effect. They also talk about going home from meetings where they continued to have visions all night long.

My friend Alex Criddle has done a lot of research on this. He discovered that Joseph Smith's grandfather was the family member who started the whole family visionary tradition. It just turns out that he was treating his rheumatism with, you guessed it, Datura. Alex's hypothesis is that one of the reasons for the religious fervor in the Burned over District was that a lot of people were having visions and spiritual experiences as a side-effect of the medicines they were using, and not realizing the source.

Early Mormons also did full-body anointing's that spawned visions. A cinnamon spiced liquor is mentioned, but who knows what else might have been mixed in with it. The recipe for the anointing oil used in the Old Testament contains several psychoactive substances that, according to Rev. Danny Nemu, combine in complimentary ways to make a psychoactive sum that is greater than the parts. The Talmud expands the ingredients list to add more psychoactive ingredients.

I would have to look up the reference, but someone at the School of the Prophets also mentioned that Joseph had them smoke some kind of very smelly weed. But who knows?